Is there a better online structure than Stars DeepStacks?

binions · #1 06-11-2007, 01:14 PM

On Stars, you get 5000 chips with 30 minute levels. It takes 8 hours of play before the big blind = 5000. Because twice as many hands are dealt online than live, that equals 16 hours of live play before BB = starting chips. Typically, 95-98% of the field in any tournament is eliminated by the time BB = SC.

Compare the WSOP $5K NLHE event, where you get 15 hours of play before BB = SC. In the smaller WSOP events, the BB = SC after 12-13 hours of play. (Main event takes 38 hours for BB = SC)(Typical stars structure takes 3.5 hours before BB = SC - or equal to 7 hours of live play).

I understand why people don't like the deep stack online tourneys. They take twice as long to finish as a normal online event with the same number of entrants.

However, I have done some research, and the best online tourney players with a statisitically valid number of samples average ~100% ROI over their careers. The top live tournament pros average ~400% ROI. I have to think one major reason is all the extra time the live pros have with deeper stacks early in the event, and relatively deeper stacks compared to the BB throughout the event compared to online structures.

After all, when the tournament average stack is less than 20xBB like it is by the 3rd hour of a typical online tourney, the skill set to succeed is pretty small, and lots of people play closer to optimally.

My question is whether there are any other online tourneys at other sites with similar or better structures to Stars DeepStacks? I ask because the Stars DeepStack tourneys are usually $20 or $30 affairs, with an $100 tourney on Saturday night. I was hoping that perhaps some other site hosted a bigger buy in deep stack event.

Cornell Fiji · #2 06-11-2007, 01:35 PM

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The top live tournament pros average ~400% ROI.

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Selection bias. The people who you consider to be 'top' pros are the ones who have won one or two big buy in events which seriously skew their ROI%. Since they don't play as many tournaments as online players, one first place will give you a +Tourney ROI even if you bust every tournament that you play for the next year and a half. I am confident that if these top players played many tournaments a day their ROI's would drop to a more realistic level.

I am sure that there are many top players who you don't know of that have ROIs more in line with what we consider the top online guys to have.

Edit: I do agree that deepstack tourneys are pretty nice though

Sherman · #3 06-11-2007, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The top live tournament pros average ~400% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selection bias. The people who you consider to be 'top' pros are the ones who have won one or two big buy in events which seriously skew their ROI%. Since they don't play as many tournaments as online players, one first place will give you a +Tourney ROI even if you bust every tournament that you play for the next year and a half. I am confident that if these top players played many tournaments a day their ROI's would drop to a more realistic level.

I am sure that there are many top players who you don't know of that have ROIs more in line with what we consider the top online guys to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, the online pros are probably making more $/hour b/c they can multitable.

Jeff76 · #4 06-11-2007, 01:47 PM

I prefer the doublestack tournies on FTP to the deepstack ones on stars. The Stars tourny certainly allows a lot more room for play, but they last forever. The doublestack on FTP has the regular FTP structure (which is more gradual that the Stars structure), but you start deeper so skill is rewarded a bit more. Having said that, they don't take all friggen day.

binions · #5 06-11-2007, 03:01 PM

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I prefer the doublestack tournies on FTP to the deepstack ones on stars. The Stars tourny certainly allows a lot more room for play, but they last forever. The doublestack on FTP has the regular FTP structure (which is more gradual that the Stars structure), but you start deeper so skill is rewarded a bit more. Having said that, they don't take all friggen day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I looked into it. As big as $1000 entry fee double stack tourneys on full tilt.

3000 chips. 12 minute levels. Slower blind increase structure than Stars.

20 levels of play on FTP before BB=SC. That's 4 hours at 12 minutes per, compared to 3.25 hours on Stars for a double stack tourney (13 levels of 15 minutes). So, Full Tilt double stack is a definitely better than Stars double stack.

Stars normal 1500 chip tourneys have 11 levels before BB=SC. That's 2.75 hours, versus 18 levels of 12 minutes or 3.6 hours on Full Tilt for their 1500 chip events.

The Stars nightly 162 has a slightly better structure than the normal Stars tourney. At 2000 starting chips, BB=SC after 3.5 hours of play.

The Sunday Second Chance on Stars for 215 is equal to Full Tilt double stacks, with BB=SC after 4 hours of play.

The normal Sunday Million reaches BB=SC after 4.5 hours.

The Wednesday Stars $320 is one of the better Stars structures and better than any on Full Tilt with BB=SC after 5 hours of play.

The $1020 Super Tuesday BB=SC after 5 hours and 20 minutes.

The 350+20 and 615+35 and 1000+50 WSOP qualifiers have 6.5 hours of play before BB=SC.

But Stars deep stacks allow 8 hours of play before BB=SC.

Nogatsira · #6 06-11-2007, 05:03 PM

I like it very much aswell, but its sooo freakin long [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

SonofDjugashvili · #7 06-11-2007, 05:18 PM

It helped to end my 2nd marriage. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] The first late night one I played started at midnight my time I believe and we made a 3-way chop for 1st at 9:30AM. While I can play live tourneys and stay focused all day, my patience falters in these DS online things - a couple of times I have knowingly blown all my chips around 5-6AM with silly fancy moves just because I was bored. I guess I have to watch more online porn while playing these. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] But, yeah, the structure is great, and while I am fully focused for the first 4 hrs or so, I kill them.

FlyingCarpet · #8 06-11-2007, 05:32 PM

I really like these tourneys, tons of play and decreases the luck factor. I've played a few and my only request is a buy in like $50-$80 to help make the prize pool worth the hours. I'm not rolled for the $100 plus other than the occasional stab.

Eratosthenes · #9 06-11-2007, 06:35 PM

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Also, the online pros are probably making more $/hour b/c they can multitable.

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I think many (most, all?) of the top online pros give up some ROI to increase their $/hr. These guys could squeeze more out of each tournament if they played only one or two tables. This would kill their $/hr, though.

I looked at the opr results of several (~10--that is a really, really, small sample) very good players in the $22x180 person SNGs on stars. With this very small sample size there was an negative correlation between number of tournaments played and ROI. The slope was small enough that the guys that played more tournaments were getting better $/hr. Did I mention that this was a really small sample?