Limit O8 - Value bet with big set or check for a free card

[yukoncpa]

Low stakes 7 handed limit o8, both villains are loose, aggression level was high on one villain, but I can’t remember the specifics. 2 people limp to me on the button, I raise with A2QQ. Both blinds fold, limpers call. Flop is QT4, two clubs ( I have no clubs ). Both limpers check to me, I bet, they both call. Turn is Ace of clubs, putting 3 cards to a straight and flush on board, and counterfeiting my backdoor low draw. They both check to me. What’s my move?

[BigBadBabar]

bet for value

[Fiasco]

do these guys ever checkraise? how loose are they? Will they bluff the river if you check through on the turn?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
do these guys ever checkraise? how loose are they? Will they bluff the river if you check through on the turn?



[/ QUOTE ] very loose, they love to checkraise, and I don't know if they bluff the river if I chk turn. I left this info out, becuase I was actually curious about the standard play, assuming unknowns. I'm assuming if they are ck raising fools, that I should chk, particularly if I think one or both would bluff air on the river if i chk turn.

[steamboatin]

Check then call the river if you don't fill up.

[Buzz]

Yukon CPA - You bet to increase your chances of scooping, hoping that both opponents will fold to your bet.

Anyone who doesn't have a club flush has to be concerned that the person betting does. It's better than two to one that neither opponent has a club flush. (2.2 to 1). (Therefore it's unlikely either opponent has a club flush). (Moreover, anyone with a club flush might well have bet). From the perspective of an opponent, when you bet, you either have the club flush or you don't. But although you know (now at any rate) how unlikely it is that either of two opponents has the flush, probably neither of your opponents is as knowledgeable about these odds as you are.

If you bet it has to be scary for anyone without a club flush, and who has possibly just had their own low draw counterfeited.

You're not going to get rid of some fool who was chasing after this flop with 23XY or 25XY, but you might get rid of anybody who doesn't have much, but who would take away the low half of your pot.

In my humble opinion, the pre-flop raise was a poor move on your part because it decreases the chance of this semi-bluff bet to work. Since the pot is bigger than it would have otherwise been, and since your opponents have invested more, they're more likely not to fold here than without the pre-flop raise.

Even so, your best play is to bet, hopng that both opponents will fold. Someone might fold a straight here and someone might fold a baby flush.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

The important thing to think about in these spots is whether or not you can call a check raise, and with this hand you can call a check raise, so you need to bet. If you get called, check the river unimproved. If you get check raised, fold the river unimproved.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
In my humble opinion, the pre-flop raise was a poor move on your part because it decreases the chance of this semi-bluff bet to work. Since the pot is bigger than it would have otherwise been, and since your opponents have invested more, they're more likely not to fold here than without the pre-flop raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Buzz,
After 2 loose limpers enter the pot, are there any hands you would raise with? I figured AQQ2 was a reasonable pushing hand if I raised the blinds out. Which hands, if any, ought I be raising in my scenario?

[Buzz]

Yukon CPA - I think you alert your opponents as to specifics of your hand when you raise on the button with acey-deucey hands. Thus your opponents are less likely to bet into you on later rounds with hands that would be beaten by A2XY, and they're more likely to call on later rounds with hands that would beat A2XY.

I do think Hero should mix up his play so as to not be predictable, and thus in my humble opinion, Hero should sometimes raise before the flop. But what hands specifically would I raise with? That's a very good question, meaning it's very difficult for me to answer.

The answer is opponent specific.

Against expert opponents who can read hands well, I might be raising every time I had a playable hand and my first down card was a club. I might play like that for a while and then I might shift gears and raise every time my first down card was not a club. But you probably don't have many, if any, expert opponents in your game.

In a tight game with one strong player sitting in the small blind seat who would probably fold to a raise, I might raise with any playable hand.

It just really depends. But it simply would not be just to get one more bet into the pot on the first betting round.

And with that specific hand, I don't really want to knock out the blinds. I want them playing and not reading me for A2QQ.

There are many fine players who disagree with me about pre-flop raises. There seem to be many successful styles of Omaha-8 play.

When I play Texas hold 'em, I usually enter the action with a raise. And then I probably usually follow that up with a continuation bet. But I play Omaha-8 quite differently. (I don't play Texas hold 'em much because I greatly prefer Omaha-8). Starting hand selection is important in either game, possibly more important in Omaha-8. But connecting to the flop and ultimately three cards of the five card board is more critical in Omaha-8 than in Texas hold 'em. Many say that starting hand selection is the most important aspect of Omaha-8; I disagree. I think flop selection is the most important aspect of Omaha-8. I like to wait until after the flop to start my sequence of moves.

I think I probably understand Omaha-8 starting hands as well as anyone. But I like to put my opponents on cards after the flop and out-play them accordingly.

That's just my opinion and my style. And I'm certainly not the greatest poker player out there. I'm constantly in a state of flux, looking for ways to improve and thus am open to new ideas about pre-flop raises.

Buzz