River line?

NigelSmith · #1 06-07-2007, 05:05 AM

This one's been bothering me for a while and, while it's probably pretty standard, it's a situation that comes up quite often...

Usual Stars Euro-lunchtime crowd, BB is 22/10/1.2 over 175, with a 30% VPIP from the big blind:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 6 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero...

And I *swear* I could hear Boz screaming at me not to wuss out coz of the third diamond :-)

So is this a b/c, b/f or, given that I've played a pretty obvious TPTK line, a check behind?

FWIW, if the villain's been collecting stats on *me* he'll have me at around 14/10/3, I've seen him call down with TP-poor kicker and worse and I've never seen him C/R. On the minus side I've had a few people let me bet their hands for them recently, so perhaps I'm coming over as a bit too aggro.

BigBadBabar · #2 06-07-2007, 05:12 AM

totally standard bet and call if raised

fretelöo · #3 06-07-2007, 06:23 AM

I'd have a longer think than BBB if I get raised, but it's a bet for sure.

OziBattler · #4 06-07-2007, 06:24 AM

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totally standard bet and call if raised

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villian prob has KxSooted. throw up in your mouth if he CR and flips K10.

whenever I see the donk/call c/c line it always seems to be a top/medium pair that is scared of AA or being outkicked.

NigelSmith · #5 06-07-2007, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
whenever I see the donk/call c/c line it always seems to be a top/medium pair that is scared of AA or being outkicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, a river C/R would mean he's no longer scared -- is there any value in calling?

OziBattler · #6 06-07-2007, 07:39 AM

following my logic, if he has that pair then he doesnt have the flush...yes of course, a flush may play this way but would a guy with 1.2 aggro play it that way? i'd expect hear from a T on the turn. reads ftw.

bet the river cos the thing is, if you check behind here you are losing money every time he has Kx, 99, 88 or whatever hand he has that he is calling down with. On this river it goes c/c and you win alot of the time

deal with the ocassional CR when it happens. I'd need a read that villian isnt tricky in order to fold.

marchron · #7 06-07-2007, 09:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
deal with the ocassional CR when it happens. I'd need a read that villian isnt tricky in order to fold.

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Villain has never check/raised in 175 hands. I'm folding instantly if he does it here.

RabidTortuga · #8 06-07-2007, 07:43 PM

Based on the read, bet the river. His AF doesn't lead me to believe he's leading the flop into a raiser with a flush draw. He defended with KQ, KJ, K9, maybe even 99,88. He would defend with Ax and Kx, but would he bet out?

I think most of the time you're ahead here and get a crying call.

NigelSmith · #9 06-08-2007, 12:36 PM

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Villain has never check/raised in 175 hands. I'm folding instantly if he does it here.

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And that's what happened -- he checked, I bet, he raised and I (eventually) folded based on the zero C/R read. I may have got that wrong, but I've since had a chance to go over the other hands I have seen Villain play and he's always played pretty obviously, the only trickery being after he raised PF and then tried to slowplay flopped quad Aces.

The hand was also very similar to one of the last in SSHE's River Quiz section, where the answer was bet but there was nothing on what to do if raised -- nor is there with most of the hands there. I'm guessing from all your replies that the answer to any heads-up river value bet that gets C/R'ed is "call unless you have a 100% sure read -- and even then think *really* hard about calling".

Thanks for the help!

Thriller · #10 06-08-2007, 03:13 PM

I bet/call here.

I would have expected to see more aggression on trips when the T hits.

I'd like to know what he's check raising with for future reference in case this is just this is something new he is adding to his play. I just hate that it would be at the expense of our 1 BB.