mucks hand but says call, what happens here?

[DMC0627]

Tourney, one guy goes all in, another guy said call but pitched his cards in the muck at exactly the same time. He obv meant to say fold. Argument ensued, floor was called. Floor came over, bottom line dealer didn't hear the call, although several others did, so floor decided it was a muck. The guy who said call said either way, he mucked his cards so that action would prevail. Others said verbal was binding. Yet others said whatever took place first would stand. I know there has to be a rule, but would like to know what it is. Info appreciated.

[LasVegasMichael]

Verbal is binding, however, the dealer needs to hear it, as in a tourney, the table could gang up and lie.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Tourney, one guy goes all in, another guy said call but pitched his cards in the muck at exactly the same time. He obv meant to say fold. Argument ensued, floor was called. Floor came over, bottom line dealer didn't hear the call, although several others did, so floor decided it was a muck. The guy who said call said either way, he mucked his cards so that action would prevail. Others said verbal was binding. Yet others said whatever took place first would stand. I know there has to be a rule, but would like to know what it is. Info appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to bitch slap those who said the verbal call is binding. It makes no sense that one would say call while mucking, before seeing the other player's cards. Obvious brain fart, let the guy muck his cards and move on to the next hand.

[JJH3984]

Agree, Not like he's trying to gain an advantage here.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
Verbal is binding, however, the dealer needs to hear it, as in a tourney, the table could gang up and lie.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. If there was no significant action behind him after he did that then it shouldn't be binding, even if the dealer hears it. If there was a raise behind him the floor would have to make a decision if it was in the best interests of the game to force a call. It may well be in some circumstances - late in a tourney with the blinds high would be a spot where a false call could cause some serious issues.

In the situation OP described I think they handled it right. No harm, no foul. Hand is mucked.

[LasVegasMichael]

Look at it this way. How many people announce that they are folding? Most people just muck without a word.

Now, what if the guy in question was looking at the player that went all in when he said call and detected a reaction from it (i.e. a facial tick or other tell), and mucked instantly afterward, claiming it was an accident.

Maybe I have just seen too many angle shoots from various unscrupoulus players (especially in a tournament) that I am a little too wary of "accidents" like this.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way. How many people announce that they are folding? Most people just muck without a word.

Now, what if the guy in question was looking at the player that went all in when he said call and detected a reaction from it (i.e. a facial tick or other tell), and mucked instantly afterward, claiming it was an accident.

Maybe I have just seen too many angle shoots from various unscrupoulus players (especially in a tournament) that I am a little too wary of "accidents" like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would have to be in one motion. Saying call and at the same time pitching the cards to muck. Even then I stand by my earlier reply that if the next player immediately acted on the call it might have to stand depending on circumstances (see above).

[PokerEveryDay]

Simple, MUCKED.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

This kind of stupidity and idiocy is why I liked poker better before the wpt boom. This wpt trained idiot will get what he deserves if the floor makes him call and then mucks his hand anyway. Given the state of poker today, this is not so unlikely.

The "principle of clear intent" is not in the rulebooks, but it should be. If he clearly intended to muck, it should be a muck.