Hand from Live 10/20 Borgata game. Range Questions

[rubixxcube]

I am not involved in this hand but was at the table. I know both of these players however neither player knows the other so assume they are unknowns when answering and i'll post results of actual actions and hands afterwards.

Full game, Folded to CO who raises to 20.
Button and SB fold.
BB calls 10 More.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks.
CO bets 10 and BB calls.
Turn board A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets 20
CO raises to 40
BB reraises to 60

The questions are with the above board what hands should CO be willing to reraise to 80 with.

Secondly, if CO reraises to 80, what hands should BB be willing to reraise to 100 with?


Lastly if you are BB and CO raises to 80 what range do you put CO on and as CO if BB goes to 100 what range do you put BB on?

(Normally 80 is a cap in atlantic city but heads up theres no cap)

[ship it pls]

read essential, but i think something like this is appropriate:
4-bet is QJ+
5-bet is KT+
6-bet is AT+
7-bet is KK+

[Carmine]

4-bets -TT/AA/KK/
5-bets - TT/AA
6-bets - TT

This would change if one of the players was an idiot

[ship it pls]

carmine, you saying you wouldnt put in the 4th bet with AT on this board against a bb bet/3-bet... i think that is a no brainer, maybe call down with AT to the 5th, but certainly push back further with KK+

for those not involved yet... does my range make me a lag, or does his make him a nit?

[rubixxcube]

My feelings were actually in between what the 2 of you posted: I was thinking somewhere along the following:

4-Bet: K10+
5-Bet: A10+
6-Bet: KK+
7-Bet: AA+

Results of the actual hand.
CO 4 bets Turn and BB calls.
River 4 Spades.
BB checks, CO bets and BB calls.

CO wins pot with JQ. BB shows only a 10 and mucks.

This all surprised me as i assumed 1 of them was full.
I normally would not go 4 bets here with QJ. CO said she would definately go 4 bets with QJ there and that she thought BB would go 5 bets if he was full as if she was heads up she would have gone 5 bets with K10 or better.

I'm not sure i like going 4 bets with QJ here nor am i sure i necessarily like 5 bets with K10. just looking to see what peoples thoughts are on these lines.

The reason i don't like going 4 or 5 bets with some of these hands is that if you are reraised there is a 95% you are beat and few would be good enough nor should they go 4 bets and then fold to 5 etc... or go 5 and fold to 6. Now you have to call the additional bet and also probably payoff on river when you are most likely losing.

I always remeber something like don't raise/reraise if you would hate to be reraised.

My thought are all over the place but it just doesn't feel right to me 4 betting a paired board with a straight or 5 betting with bottom boat, if this is too tight/nitty please let me know.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
carmine, you saying you wouldn't put in the 4th bet with AT on this board against a bb bet/3-bet... i think that is a no brainer, maybe call down with AT to the 5th, but certainly push back further with KK+

for those not involved yet... does my range make me a lag, or does his make him a nit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ship, I'm sorry I posted this quickly before leaving for work this morning. AT should be in the the 4-bet category. No way QJ should be looking to 4-bet a paired board Even KT has concerns. Let's analyze the dialog being spoken here.

BB bets turn. CO says I don't care if you have a ten I have QJ minimum(note here there is no reason to push JT as they are splitting also why raise AK). BB says I don't care if you have QJ I have KT minimum. CO says I don't care if you have KT I have AT minimum.

The only possible question mark here is would AK/JT raise after BB donks. In which case KT could be pushed to the 4-bet catagory.

So 4-betting less than AT/maybe KT is foolish IMO. Now I realize this dialog is between two competent players which may make me a nit for assuming my opponent is competent. It's just how I approach any new game/players. It's up to them to show me otherwise.

In this hand apparently both players were idiots IMO if they were truly unknown Vs. unknown.

[ship it pls]

i like the conversation you put together. i think if we isolate the turn action from the rest of the hand it would be appropriate. however, we must take into consideration the previous action... preflop this is appears to be more of a blind defense than anything else, TT/KK/AA get re-pumped very often as well as AT-AK... with the flop play i think we can assume bb has A-rag, K-broadway, T-broadway... if BB is slowplaying two pr this is definitely the wrong board to do it, thus i give a greatly reduced probability that KT/AT show up, and almost never AK or a set...

with check-call on the flop and the bet/3-bet i expect bb has QT or JT a vast majority of the time, thats why i pop QJ to 4... if he comes back to 5 bets i strongly consider folding, but call down hoping for a chop or an out of line play or over valued hand...

by the way carmine, if i was at the table and went 5-bets with AT on that board and you just ended up calling me down with KK, or if i went 6 with KK and you just called down with AA at that point... i would cry in laughter at the sand in your vagina - even after sending a buy-in your way

good conversation and thought, thanks... by the way i think this puts me at a solid lag and you at a solid nit, so we both loose...