Overplaying KK preflop in No Limit

[VegasRunner]

I'm probably gonna catch some hell for this post, but that's okay. After all, that's really the only reason to post here, right?

I've been playing my normal No Limit TAG game in different casinos in Las Vegas for about four months now and I've been doing very well. My question is in regard to laying down KK preflop.

In the past four months, I've laid it down three seperate times and each time, I was lucky enough to see that I was in fact againist a pair of aces. After each lay down, I had a little party inside my head and arrogantly applauded myself for being such an amazing player.

But perhaps I had no reason to be happy.

Wouldn't I have been much better off simply calling the preflop raise rather than reraising and finding out 100% that I was up againist aces?

Here's my reasoning:

The initial raise by the AA in most of these games can be 5 BB and sometimes more. To find out if the guy has got aces or not I usually have to reraise somewhere between the min raise and twice the initial raise to find out where I am. After the AA rebumps me for most of my stack, it's an easy lay down if I respect the rasier.

The problem is gaining the information that I needed (that the initial raiser has AA), I've cost myself at least 15 BB. Had I cold called the initial raise, I could have reevaluated on the flop. Also, I would have disguised my hand and I could have called almost any bet on then flop if an ace doesn't fall for the same price as my preflop reraise. And the perhaps the biggest advanatge is that once out of 8 hands, I'll flop a set the villian couldn't possibly put me on and I've got a great chance to win a monster.

My point is this: The real value of KK is winning a small pot without improving, so why bother reraising with it preflop? Assuming I'm not trying to isolate a weak player and the initial raise isn't going to get 4 callers, a reraise preflop from a TAG player like me is pretty much always one of the four premimum hands. Why should I give away that much information when I can outplay the villian after the flop and I don't really want to build a large pot anyway?

[tarheeljks]

you can't afford to be going to the flop 3 handed w/a hand that good. if you expand your raising range you won't be giving away "that much information."

[ApeAttack]

DON'T BE AFRAID OF AA and DON'T BE AFRAID OF AN ACE COMING OUT!

KK is not a drawing hand!



[ QUOTE ]

In the past four months, I've laid it down three seperate times and each time, I was lucky enough to see that I was in fact againist a pair of aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

But how many times did you have KK and you weren't up against AA? If you don't reraise, you allow others to come in because of the increased pot odds. Premium starting hands do not like a lot of callers.

It is OK to sometimes only call with KK preflop for deception, but most of the time you are better off 3-betting. If you don't want someone to be able to put you on a specific hand, you should be 3-betting preflop more often with hands other than AA, KK, AK and QQ.



[ QUOTE ]

The initial raise by the AA in most of these games can be 5 BB and sometimes more. To find out if the guy has got aces or not I usually have to reraise somewhere between the min raise and twice the initial raise to find out where I am. After the AA rebumps me for most of my stack, it's an easy lay down if I respect the rasier.

The problem is gaining the information that I needed (that the initial raiser has AA), I've cost myself at least 15 BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it cheaper to get out for 15BB than possibly losing your whole stack to AA? (assuming that a 4-bet almost always means AA). By 3-betting, you find out if your opponent has you crushed, you hopefully make it heads-up if he just calls and you get more money in the pot when you are probably a huge favorite.

If he has AA and an A isn't on the board, aren't you going to get stacked anyways (except against a super nit). If you just call preflop and the flop is QJ7 and he bets the pot on the flop, are you just going to call or raise? If he then reraises you, you don't know if he hit a set, AA, AQ or a monster draw. If you then make a bad call, you will be losing a lot more than 15BB.


[ QUOTE ]

Had I cold called the initial raise, I could have reevaluated on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

What if you call preflop and it becomes 4-handed (2 others call). The flop is QJ9 and the initial better bets the pot. Will you raise then? You now have to worry about the other two players in the hand too. This kind of situation sucks big time. You could have avoided it if you reraised preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

Also, I would have disguised my hand and I could have called almost any bet on then flop if an ace doesn't fall for the same price as my preflop reraise.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't hit an A, he might be done with the hand and you don't get any more money from him than the initial preflop bet. If you reraised, he called with AQ and the flop came 983, you get the extra reraise money. If the flop comes QJ3, you may get his stack, but he will hit a Q only ~1 in 6 times.


[ QUOTE ]

And the perhaps the biggest advanatge is that once out of 8 hands, I'll flop a set the villian couldn't possibly put me on and I've got a great chance to win a monster.


[/ QUOTE ]

You do NOT play KK for set value. That is what 22-88 are for. If he has JJ and the flop comes KQ3, do you think you will get more out of him? Probably not.


[ QUOTE ]

Assuming I'm not trying to isolate a weak player and the initial raise isn't going to get 4 callers, a reraise preflop from a TAG player like me is pretty much always one of the four premimum hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know if the initial raise isn't going to get more callers? (unless you have KK in the BB and everyone else has folded).

If you are worried about your image, open up your 3-betting range. 3-bet with TT+, AQ+ (unless you are up against a super tight player). Also, keep in mind that a lot of other players are not paying THAT much attention.

[4CardStraight]

Yeah, this is quite terrible thinking. The value of KK is not winning small pots with no ace on board.

You should get it all in preflop every time you have KK unless you are playing with 500bb stacks or more.

Seriously. People play AQs and JJ to the felt for this kind of money and KK is a hand that WANTS to see all the cards for all the money.

Seeing AA after you fold is results oriented... Now, live, with tells in effect, sure you can possibly fold kk when you know the guy has AA... but really, you should not be afraid of AA, you should get all your money in as fast as possible. KK is the second most profitable hand in poker, and it gets less and less profitable with each card that hits the board, no joke.

[sweeng8]

It may depend on the limits you play, but online playing at 1/2 I have never layed down KK, ever. Of course you run into AA sometimes but more often that not its AK, QQ, JJ, AQ, people even lose full stacks with AJ, 10 10, etc. Live I have chucked it once after a raise, reraise, and all in, when I knew the player well enough that he could only have AA (which he did) but unless you are getting some really good tells I dont think you should be laying down KK very often pre flop. Also, letting a flop drop before evaluating your hand is only allowing the player to catch up. If he has AA youre probably going all in anyway on a soft flop, and your letting lesser pairs hit trips against you. With KK you shouldnt be looking to hit trips, you should be looking to jam the pot at hope your hand holds up

[erocplayer]

I think that although it is good that you trust you reading abilities, your gut, and your discipline to play KK through five community cards, that it is an improper play to let your opponent (who many times will NOT have AA) see 3 cheap cards. In TX HE, you're using 5/7th's of the available cards and it is better to force your opponents to decisions while they have only 2/7th's of the picture.

They say it's the hands played poorly and the suckouts that the Hero remembers. Try to remember all your KK victories (there should be plenty) and you probably won't have dilemmas with the second best hand in the game.

Not to mention, it's not very often that your KK will butt heads against AA, and even then, only 4/5 of the time will you get stacked.

-eroc

[PantsOnFire]

Some thoughts:

1. As far as giving away information when 3-betting preflop, simply open up more to do this. Not only will you become less readable, you will get more action after you show down one of these hands. As well, a pf 3-better has much more credibility on a flop continuation bet.

2. When you cold call a raise with KK, you are giving hands like AQ to catch an A, 99 to spike a set and any other hand to hit two pair or trips.

3. If you do end up cold calling a raise by AA, the chances of a K or A hitting the flop are cut in half. So a lot of the time you will be facing a Q or J high rag flop and be headed for losing your stack.

[VegasRunner]

Okay.

Fair enough.

I certainly don't agree with all the replies I got. (Especially the guy who said I should be trying to stack off anything less than a 500 BB stack preflop with KK.)

And I still think that I am quite capable of seeing a soft board and laying down an overpair if someone moves in.

But perhaps the majority of people here are right in saying that the real problem that I'm having is that I'm not 3 betting with enough hands.

And yes, you all are right. Cold calling does open the door for more callers than I want.

And the thing I said about hitting the set--forget it. I'd go back and edit it out of my orginial post, but then all of your replies would look ridiculous.

Long story short: nevermind. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the replies anyway.

[Gonso]

It's very rare that I've been able to pinpoint someone's preflop range exactly to aces only. Maybe against a 10/2 rock in a full ring game or something.

If you hold KK, there are 6 ways for villain to have AA and 8 to have AK. If he has the aces you're more than a 4-to-1 dog, against AK you're more than a 2-to-1 favorite.

Imagine you could somehow rule out every other hand, and any chance of a bluff, and limit his range to just AA and AK. Even then, you're just less than a flip against that range (if he has aces 6 times for every 8 times he has AK). For greater frequencies of AA than that, you'd better be pretty sure. Remember, we're already assuming he has QQ or worse 100% of the time, a tall order IMO.

Most of the players at low limits are bad enough where you have to give them at least a slightly broader range, and higher players will generally not be this tight and should also be afforded a greater range.

Now, if you happen to run across That Special SuperRock Guy who will only play the absolute nuts, and you're both fairly deep, it's possible. With money already in the pot though, you'd better have a really, really good read on him having AA to lay it down.

[PantsOnFire]

Yeah, I think to summarize what Gonso is saying is that the money you lose when you go against AA (and AA holds up) is less than the money you gain when you run into another type of hand.

To keep this sort of thinking fresh in your mind just remember that KK dominates 167 other unique hands and is dominated by only one hand. Now obviously, you can reduce that number of 167 other hands quite a bit given a situation but unless you can reduce it to zero, which won't be often IMHO, then play KK strong and live with the results.

So if you start folding KK (or playing it passively), it will probably be -EV in the long run unless you are a super hand/player reader and can confidently rule out 167 hands.