200/4 td boring?

[TStoneMBD]

mixed game. both villains are good.

utg raises, mp folds, co calls, I call 245, sb folds, bb calls.

all 4 of us draw 2. I catch a 3 to make 2345. they all check, I bet. bb raises, mp calls, co folds, I call.

bb draws 1, mp 2, me 1. I pair. they both check I check.

bb draws 1, co 2. I draw 1 and make a jack. they both check, I check.

[*TT*]

pre-draw - you can 3-bet on the button with a draw this good.

after the first draw because there is the cold-caller in the hand, the raise is for value and establishing the position of the button. Unless he is retarded, BB usually won't have a draw better than 1 card.

I'm coolio with the river, but I sometimes value bet if the opponents are likely to fold a T vs your bet in a multi-way pot, if they will call with duces or K high the bet is for value.

[DeathDonkey]

I'd 3 bet preflop and on the flop for value. River depends on your frequencies so its tough to say. I'd check here and rarely bluff, others might bluff more and value bet here.

-DeathDonkey

[HOWMANY]

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I'd 3 bet preflop and on the flop for value. River depends on your frequencies so its tough to say. I'd check here and rarely bluff, others might bluff more and value bet here.


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It's refreshing to see that I'm not going insane because I have completely disagreed with a ton of posts the past couple weeks and am only recently seeing a few that make perfect sense to me. I 3bet before the draw a lot more than I 3bet after the draw but I do both a decent amount. River I would value bet like always had I caught a T here. People hate folding on the river in this game, especially in this kind of spot for 1 bet when it's like everyone is begging someone else to throw some sort of bluff in there. I suspect I would probably check in reality but I think a bet may be right.

Is there a 1/2 game going regularly already at the Rio? Is it BOT or something else? I wanna give myself an excuse to come down to Vegas after finals.

[*TT*]

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Is there a 1/2 game going regularly already at the Rio? Is it BOT or something else? I wanna give myself an excuse to come down to Vegas after finals.

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The cash games start at 9am tomorrow morning [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[bugstud]

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Is there a 1/2 game going regularly already at the Rio? Is it BOT or something else? I wanna give myself an excuse to come down to Vegas after finals.

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<------ this donkey lives in vegas and is bad at poker. There are many worse than me, just come take our money.

[palman]

I'm kinda shocked by how strong people view 245 here on the button. I play the hand exactly how you did, although value betting the river is a fine way to play it as well, and I probably do this half the time. I don't think I've ever 3 bet this pre-draw. I tend to not 3 bet after the first draw either.

the guy in the middle is going to stay around regardless and drop after the 2nd draw if he doesn't improve regardless, so not much is accomplished by pumping it here. I can see going for value if you had a stronger draw than 2345. With 2345 I tend to play a little more passively, you're either going to catch a monster or you aren't, so letting it stay multi-way isn't that bad. the Blind should be check-raising with any 1 card draw here, but I find in live play, people tend to do this less often, so a c/r I would be more inclined to put on a strong pat hand than logic would dictate. If he had a 7 draw and improved one card he'd be more likely to just lead here, so I'd put him on either a decent pat hand, or a rough 1 card draw that is in much better shape if heads up. Since most ppl will still call 2 with any good 7 draw, and UTG should have this hand, that'd lean me to think even more that the blind has something decent here. Although all of this is based on my reads from playing in the 40 game there daily, although I've played with most of the 200 players as well.

Perhaps I'm wrong and the value gotten from the button/knowing the guy in the middle is still on 2 or drawing weak/getting the blind to break a weak pat hand is worth a 3 bet, I can certainly understand that case. But I really doubt there's much value in 3 betting 245 here pre-draw. A better 2 card 7 draw sure, why not.

[*TT*]

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Perhaps I'm wrong and the value gotten from the button/knowing the guy in the middle is still on 2 or drawing weak/getting the blind to break a weak pat hand is worth a 3 bet, I can certainly understand that case. But I really doubt there's much value in 3 betting 245 here pre-draw. A better 2 card 7 draw sure, why not.

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Your 3-betting to determine the pot size, and the odds you are laying the blinds. Think of it this way, if your the button and your not 3-betting your hand, then its probably not strong enough to play. If you cold call your laying the BB 6.5:1 odds, and he is correct to call with a hand like 27xxx, 23xxx, or if he is loose even 37xxx. When you 3-bet your establishing post draw supremacy and first draw strength encouraging a check to the raiser, and also encouraging the players with weaker draws to dump cards that they might have stayed pat with (I know this rarely makes a difference, but the 5% of the time it does it pays off). Additionally your laying 7.5:2 immediate odds to the BB and they are not closing the action - forcing the blinds to fold many hands they might have otherwise played.

In short you have a lot more to gain by raising on the button than calling, this is standard Theory of Poker stuff - take actions that encourage your opponents to make a big mistake.

[MarkGritter]

It may also be worthwhile to increase the pot size to maximize the value of your positional advantage. Because you have a drawing and playing advantage on all subsequent rounds, you should prefer buliding the pot even if your hand is slightly worse that what you suspect other people have.

(It is difficult to quantify this advantage--- but breaking instead of patting dead obviously can be worth 20%-30% of the pot, and patting instead of drawing is often worth 20-30% of the pot as well.)

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
It may also be worthwhile to increase the pot size to maximize the value of your positional advantage. Because you have a drawing and playing advantage on all subsequent rounds, you should prefer buliding the pot even if your hand is slightly worse that what you suspect other people have.

(It is difficult to quantify this advantage--- but breaking instead of patting dead obviously can be worth 20%-30% of the pot, and patting instead of drawing is often worth 20-30% of the pot as well.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I was re-reading Sklansky on Hold'em last night, this same situation is discussed in the Razz 4th street section when you know that you will have position on the opponent on future streets when you pair and they bet into you with a high card such as a Q with a medium draw board.