25NL JJ and i'm in call down mode

creamfillin · #1 05-30-2007, 09:09 AM

I struggle in these spots when an overcard flops to my medium pair, I'm always torn between "do I rep the overcard or go into bluff catcher mode". Usually on a very wet board I'll bet at it, but i chose to check here. Do you call this river? how about a non-ace river

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($43.95)
Hero ($24.40)
Button ($31.65)
SB ($0.70)
BB ($37.20)
UTG ($22.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, Button calls $1, 2 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($4.35) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.25, Hero calls $2.25.

River: ($8.85) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $14.10

Atlanta Andrew · #2 05-30-2007, 09:18 AM

NH.

It'd be an easier decision to play it this way if you had QQ, but I see nothing wrong with usind the same line for JJ. I also like your reasoning about the wet vs dry board.

Depends on the villain, but I'm probably not calling river even if it's a non-ace.

-Andrew

BoerfSt · #3 05-30-2007, 09:22 AM

I make a bet on the flop, if he calls I make a second bet on the turn against lose players.
As played I fold river.But I think its better to make a bet on flop and go from there.

Dastone · #4 05-30-2007, 09:40 AM

What do you make of villains play, along with his perception of you? Because I don't like this line at all. Unless there is some info that we're missing.

You basically just handed over the pot to villain, I think. Villain likely doesn't believe you are check/calling all the way down with an ace high hand, so if he's bluffing he can confidently bluff the river knowing that you will not call.

I don't know if that's the case; it's likely not, but I just thinking checking the flop is the wrong play in this situation with this hand.

If you had a hand that you could check/call all the way down with I think it's fine, but we don't.

That is why I would make a bet on the flop, or even donk the turn(if we plan on calling another barrell.) At least this way you have shown some kind of interest in the pot, and may likely slow villain down, and force him to consider that you might have a good enough hand, and so he likely not be taking shots at you, and you can fold with confidence.

Atlanta Andrew · #5 05-30-2007, 10:19 AM

Dastone,

The whole point of your post seems to be that hero should be betting to prevent getting 3-barrel bluffed by villain. This just does not happen often enough, imo, to make it an important strategy for this hand.

I never make a bet for the sole reason to "slow villain down", especially out of postion.

Betting the flop is usually going to fold all worse hands and get called or raised by better hands. There's not much value in it.

-Andrew

ontiltsoon · #6 05-30-2007, 10:34 AM

Sorry, but I don't like this resoning at all, maybe it's just a leak I have, I'm not saying you are wrong.

By simply check/calling you are letting villain catchup at what ever price he want's even for free. Betting the flop gives you the option of winning a 9BB pot insted of having to fold a 35BB because with your passive play.

As in this handQQ 3betted preflop I think you have to bet almost 100% of the time.

Dastone · #7 05-30-2007, 10:47 AM

I know it seems like that, and it's likely because as I was looking at the hand I came to the conclussion that on the river hero's hand and play was easily exploited there, and then worked backwards.

That's why I made sure to mention that getting 3 barrelled was likely not the case.

People always seem to say, well if I bet here villain won't call me with a worse hand, and that if they call or raise that I must be beat. But what to say that villain wouldn't call with a draw or a worse made hand.

You have to make a bet, give them an opportunity, in order to allow them to make the mistake of calling with a worse hand. You can't just say, they won't and that is why you don't bet.

I just see villains being given the opportunity to win the pot in many more ways by checking the flop to them. Either from free cards, bluffing/semi-bluffing. We are giving away too much information that we don't have top pair and aren't willing to play a big pot, thus allowing villain to determine what course of action we take.

So my donk on the turn suggesttion is obviously not the greatest, but if we are going to call here, and fold the river to any card we might as well make a bet, where one of the benefits aside from winning the pot, might have been to allow us a free showdown.

Atlanta Andrew · #8 05-30-2007, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I don't like this resoning at all, maybe it's just a leak I have, I'm not saying you are wrong.

By simply check/calling you are letting villain catchup at what ever price he want's even for free. Betting the flop gives you the option of winning a 9BB pot insted of having to fold a 35BB because with your passive play.

As in this handQQ 3betted preflop I think you have to bet almost 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

Your point about not letting the villain catch up for free is well taken, but this board, as OP pointed out, is not very wet. There's not a bunch of draws we need to worry about, and only two overcards. Granted, I said I like OP's line better with QQ since he would only have one overcard to worry about.

Assuming that villain's outs are usually in the 2 - 5 range when he's behind, I'm willing to risk forfeiting pot protection in this hand in favor of these other beneifts:

1) Keeping the pot under control. Once that K hits the flop, we want our marginal hand to get to showdown without paying multiple bets.

2) Not losing value from worse hands that won't call a flop bet, but will bluff or call on later streets.

I don't think you have a leak, by the way, but there's no way hero should be betting this flop 100% of the time.

-Andrew

ontiltsoon · #9 05-30-2007, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So when do you cbet?

Atlanta Andrew · #10 05-30-2007, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So when do you cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cbet when:

1. Villain is a bad player that will call down with any pair or weak draws.

2. Wet boards with both straight and flush possibilities:

J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] board

3. If my single pair is also part of a strong flush or straight draw.

-Andrew