Stud hi 883 ante steal - when do I dump this rag hand?

[DrewOnTilt]

Villain is an unknown. I'm relatively new to stud, playing it on occasion when I get tired of holdem.

Should I have just dumped this ragged assed hand on 5th? Since Villain checked behind on 6th street and there is a dead Jack, is there any enough chance that I have the best hand to justify a call on the end?

For that matter, should I have folded on 3rd with my split middle pair/no kicker? The player with the K upcard in Seat 6 was pretty weak tight.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (2.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

5th Street - (3.25 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.25 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

River - (5.25 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (5.25 BB)

[HOWMANY]

His 4th street raise seems pretty scary, but since I don't play Stud hi I don't know how scary it should be. Either way I fold 5th for sure.

[tyler_cracker]

i'm a stud noob. but i'm here so:

i'm fine with the steal raise.

villain's 4th street raise shows a lot of strength, especially after you just caught an A. my first thought was to just fold there, but that's dumb with a pair, a 3flush, and an overcard.

on 5th, you still haven't improved and villain is still firing. the pot isn't very big. i'd let it go there.

[SweetLuckyMe]

Depends totally on how aggressive the opponent is. That raise can mean anything from a pr of 4's to a rolled hand. Against some I'd fold it immediately to the 4th street raise, and against others I'd be willing to cap it to at least 6th st.

[wallenborn]

[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (2.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

[/ QUOTE ]


That raise looks scary, and i don't like your call here. Folding is ok, i think, and so is raising. But calling puts you in an awkward spot later on, imho.

[WhiteWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (2.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

[/ QUOTE ]


That raise looks scary, and i don't like your call here. Folding is ok, i think, and so is raising. But calling puts you in an awkward spot later on, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising to avoid an awkward spot latter on seems wrong. We have a pair with an overcard kicker, a 3 flush, and our hand is completely live. I think we're already just strong enough to make calls (albeit uncomfortable) on 5s + 6s. All raising does is bloat the pot when we're probably behind, and makes the subsequent calls slightly less uncomfortable. You should only 'raise for information' if you are actually going to make use of that info.

[WhiteWolf]

You're in the cutoff seat, so he's naturally going to be at least a little suspicious of your 3s completion. On 4s, you have a pair, Ace overcard kicker, and a 3-flush. All of the 8's, 3's, A's, and [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]'s are live. Your hand isn't that bad. His raise on 4s sure looks like he's got the pair of 8's you are representing beat, but he also could be getting over-frisky w/split fours and in any case our hand still has enough strength to be worth calling. I'm probably planning on calling 5s and 6s depending on how the boards develop. I'm a little confused about his 6s check, and I can't figure out what he is scared of if he actually has a pair of 8's beat (99 or TT in the hole perhaps?). River is a tough one: a fold is probably best. I might be tempted to call just to see what he has but that is probably spewage.

[cgrohman]

Its not really a steal raise. 883 is a onster on 3rd- not really but you should definitely be raising it.

[vgs]

you played 3rd street right, i will call 7th unless i know this guy well.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi Drew,

I haven't read the other responses yet, so excuse me if I repeat something that has already been said.

3rd st.: You have to raise with this strong a hand in this late a position no matter how the guy with the king plays. Even if he is the best most agressive player in the world, you must raise.

4th: You caught one of the best scare cards in the deck, and you now have a 3 flush, while your opponent ragged. This is an autobet. On 4th your hand is strong enough that you should be planning on betting the the river unless you opponent raises you (in which case you call on 5th and 6th) or he catches an open pair.

Once he raises you, things change a little. You definitely have to call the raise, but now your opponent may be able to beat 8s (he could have 4A4J, 4sXs4Js, or 55s4Js and be raising for a free card).

5th: Ugh, you both catch dead kings, but his helps him if he had a 2 or 3 flush. If you check and he bets, he probably has atleast a pair of 4s with a 4 flush or better. You are getting 2 to 5.25 odds to call both the bet on 5th and 6th. I think you have a VERY thin check call here because every single 8, A, 3, club, and heart is live and because there was a raise on 4th. The reason the live hearts are important is because it looks like to are on a flush draw since the Kh is suit to your doorcard. So, if you catch another heart on 6th your opponent may fear a check raise and check behind with one big pair.

6th: Great! You caught your scare card, he catchs a rag. Now you try to get a free card, and he kindly gives it to you.

7th: Don't mistake the check on 6th for weakness, he was scared of your flush. You can't call the river unimproved (if you were planning on calling him down, you would not have sufficient implied odds to make the call on 5th). If you had made 8s up, I would have check called. With Js up or better, I would bet (if he raises I'd make a crying call with trip 8s and maybe Aces up)

Well, it seems you played the hand perfectly! Now you know how to think it through for next time.

Regards,
Carlos