Who's the monkey here?

omaha ha slag · #1 05-27-2007, 11:54 PM

Harrow all..thought I'd beg an answer from teh collective grey matter in here as you all come highly recommended.

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $5/$5
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $641.50
UTG+1: $495
mildly perplexed: $696.25
MP2: $518.75
CO: $56
Button: $480
SB: $866.25
BB: $235

Pre-flop: (8 players) mildly perplexed is MP1
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, mildly perplexed calls $5 (pot was $15),
MP2 raises to $30,
CO raises to $55.95, Button calls, 3 folds, mildly perplexed calls $50.95 (pot was $161.9),
MP2 raises to $294.75, CO calls all-in $0.05, Button calls, mildly perplexed raises all-in $640.3,
MP2 calls all-in $224, Button calls all-in $185.25.

Uncalled bets: $121.55 returned to mildly perplexed.

Results:
Final pot: $-2456.25

So my question is...which, if any, of these players is retarded preflop?

(a) 10H KH KD10C 
(b) JH 3C AH 4D 
(c) 10D 8S QH JS 
(d) 6S 9D 5C 7C 

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2728434
pokenum -o th kh kd tc - jh 3c ah 4d - td 8s qh js - 6s 9d 5c 7c
Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards %win %tie EV
Tc Kd Kh Th 21.41 0.28 0.215
3c 4d Ah Jh 23.89 0.10 0.239
Js 8s Td Qh 23.81 0.33 0.240
6s 7c 5c 9d 30.51 0.04 0.305

Reads are - perplexed is wide ranging sLAA player as is MP2; Button is weak/tight

Bavid Denyamine · #2 05-28-2007, 02:40 AM

Ehh, just because of the nature of Omaha making judgments on these all-in preflop spots is a bit hard. The question you should be asking is: which hands are going to be consistently in good shape in a multiway pot? With that in mind, I'll take C or D, and I don't like A or B's play, especially B. B is always gonna be in 4th or 3rd place, and A is one of those hands that I personally think is overrated to get stacks in preflop with. I'm fine 3-betting with it, but you gotta find a fold button sometime.

The more I think about it, the more I just about hate everyone's play in this hand. I don't think I'd get a stack in with any one of them, but I'd probably 3-bet them all.

Silent A · #3 05-28-2007, 05:05 AM

C is terrible. The only reason his equity is this high (and it's still a money loser) is because his Ace is live. The others, while over aggressive, are at least defendable.

Would you honestly 3-bet AJ34ss?

RoundTower · #4 05-28-2007, 06:15 AM

B is not a good hand, I can't tell who is who but I would fold this somewhere. The other hands are OK, it is hard to understand who is who but probably they all put in too much money to fold.

omaha ha slag · #5 05-28-2007, 09:54 AM

I've switched the hand orders around so one can't deduce who has what from the order of reveal; however, b) is the short-stack $50 push and the blue touchpaper for this hand.

Silent - I assume that's a typo on "c) is terrible?" meaning "b)"?

Its quite interesting that there was no AAxx in play and that c) and d) would be more consistently favoured.

 Any guesses from the betting who held what?

Silent A · #6 05-28-2007, 01:53 PM

Yes, "c" is a typo. I meant "b"

Silent A · #7 05-28-2007, 02:01 PM

Did CO lose a big pot the hand before? That could explain his play.

You told us CO had AJ43ss, and I suspect Button has 9765ss because he never raises and is probably the least likely to push of the remaining hands.

If I had to pick I'd put MP2 on the KKTTss, and "Mildly Perplexed" on the QJT8ss but it could easily be the other way around.

omaha ha slag · #8 05-28-2007, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did CO lose a big pot the hand before? That could explain his play.

You told us CO had AJ43ss, and I suspect Button has 9765ss because he never raises and is probably the least likely to push of the remaining hands.

If I had to pick I'd put MP2 on the KKTTss, and "Mildly Perplexed" on the QJT8ss but it could easily be the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

As they stand:

(a) 10H KH KD10C MP2
(b) JH 3C AH 4D CO
(c) 10D 8S QH JSButton
(d) 6S 9D 5C 7C Mildly Perplexed

CO had lost a hand that round and this was the inevitable pre-reload push; Mildly Perplexed pushed to lock in preflop equity in AA KK QQ.

Interesting to note that with 3 players activing so aggressively preflop one can quit comfortably account 10~12 of the 16 face cards in the players hands.

Silent A · #9 05-28-2007, 03:32 PM

I think Mildly Perplexed got a little lucky here to have his equity this high. For example, if you change that Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in Button's hand to 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] then this becomes a 4-way coin flip and leaves KKTT a solid equity favourite in the big side pot:

Result

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2729919
pokenum -o 6s 9d 5c 7c - td 8s 9h js - th kh kd tc - jh 3c ah 4d
Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s 7c 5c 9d 99577 26.41 277071 73.50 344 0.09 0.265
Js 8s Td 9h 89435 23.72 285736 75.79 1821 0.48 0.240
Tc Kd Kh Th 92344 24.49 283459 75.19 1189 0.32 0.247
3c 4d Ah Jh 93815 24.89 282863 75.03 314 0.08 0.249

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2729909
pokenum -o 6s 9d 5c 7c - td 8s 9h js - th kh kd tc / jh 3c ah 4d
Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s 7c 5c 9d 119509 31.70 257139 68.21 344 0.09 0.317
Js 8s Td 9h 99420 26.37 276026 73.22 1546 0.41 0.266
Tc Kd Kh Th 156517 41.52 219273 58.16 1202 0.32 0.417

omaha ha slag · #10 05-28-2007, 04:06 PM

Indeed - thats why the question about their play preflop; from observation once 2~3 players have committed 20~30bb in preflop action they seem very reticent to lay any holding and the omaha maelstrom ensues.

Another analysis is to add the AAxx into the mix to see how that effects each holding. For instance, should we strengthen the short-stack's holding and place it the largest stack's hand:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2730024
pokenum -o 6s 9d 5c 7c - th kh kd tc - jh 3c ah ad - td 8s qh js
Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s 7c 5c 9d 121834 32.32 255158 67.68 0 0.00 0.323
Tc Kd Kh Th 66199 17.56 309943 82.21 850 0.23 0.177
3c Ad Ah Jh 102743 27.25 274135 72.72 114 0.03 0.273
Js 8s Td Qh 85260 22.62 290776 77.13 956 0.25 0.227