97s in the BB against two unknowns, turn decision

KDawg · #1 05-24-2007, 07:48 PM

my first hand at the table, so I have absolutely no idea what is the deal with either of the villians

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button raises, hero?

obviously folding isn't an option, but I'm wondering if three betting is the better play to try to chase out the PFR, or if I should call and try to induce him to call

Gib · #2 05-24-2007, 09:58 PM

I feel button has got something like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], either that or he's getting tricky with a set (or has A7/A9). I'd like to raise yet I would tend to call down, the general reason is if we are ahead atm i feel there may be a lot of river cards that can hurt us.

Also I like the idea of trying to get the PF-r to overcall. (FWIW if he has got an A he's generally never folding the turn, otherwise he has 2 outs, yeah & sometimes the FD)

benlj21 · #3 05-24-2007, 10:20 PM

I like raising here; I think you have more than 33% equity easily, though you could be drawing slim or dead. IMO he could be raising Ahxh here or maybe worse if he's bad. Heads up I'd just call though.

Nick C · #4 05-24-2007, 11:12 PM

I think the main issue here is that I don't want to face a Button cap from what's looking a lot like aces up. AhXh is possible, I know, and plain old Ax is as well, but I think we're going to be in bad shape versus Button's hand in this spot a lot. I mean, you check/3-bet the flop, and yet Button pops the turn in a 3-way pot anyway.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #5 05-24-2007, 11:17 PM

Where's ILOVEPOKER when you need him? This is closer to a fold than a 3-bet on the turn.

Nick C · #6 05-24-2007, 11:24 PM

Okay, I've read the responses now, and I think it's worth mentioning that if Button has Ah3h, he has 16 outs versus our hand. Meanwhile, if he's got A7, we have 2 outs versus his hand. So let's say we're ahead half of the time (generous, I think) versus the AhXh that's been mentioned and the PFR will merrily call two more cold with pocket T's. This puts our equity at about 60 percent half of the time. The other half of the time when we're behind, we're going to have about 5 percent equity.

So this works out to slightly less than 1/3 equity on average, and that's assuming the PFR comes along. And then if Button caps (which he will tend to do more frequently when he has us beat than when he doesn't), then suddenly we've put ourselves in a position of putting in an extra 2 BBs as a huge dog.

sweetjazz · #7 05-24-2007, 11:27 PM

Yeah this is a crying calldown (though I think it's a pretty easy one). I think this kind of hand is hard to play psychologically, because you go from having the nuts on the flop to having a much weaker hand on the turn (given the card and the action). You'll still win plenty often enough to make folding a bad decision, but a 3-bet is not for value against an unknown. Unless FT 2/4 plays differently than other smallish-mediumish stake games these days.

I miss the old Party Poker games where you could 3bet, get capped on the turn, call down, and see AJ or QQ.

UtzChips · #8 05-25-2007, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
my first hand at the table, so I have absolutely no idea what is the deal with either of the villians

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is your mistake. It's in every poker book written: Game selection is the most important decision a poker player will make.
With it being so easy to just kick in a DMB CD, fire up the 4 boards that have the highest avg pot and watch them for 20 minutes, narrowing down your selection, there is no excuse for getting into a game in the dark.
You should know who the Fish/Rocks/TAGs are before you join.
Takes less than 1/2 hr.
But then, I'm a "true poker player" in the sense that I play 1 table at time, make notes on my players, etc.

In this hand, you flopped a Monster! Two Pair! However, you have no idea how strongly these Villains will bet/raise with only a pair of Aces.
You've got a Monster and you're in the dark.........imagine if it was a nice hand but a drawing hand.......

Proper prior preparation, prevents piss poor performance.

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button raises, hero?

obviously folding isn't an option, but I'm wondering if three betting is the better play to try to chase out the PFR, or if I should call and try to induce him to call

[/ QUOTE ]