How many streets did I misplay here?

Pudge714 · #1 05-20-2007, 09:29 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

(t13039)
MP1 (t9056)
MP2 (t34133)
MP3 (t12809)
CO (t52067)
Button (t39552)
SB (t43510)
Hero (t37729)
UTG (t28275)

Preflop: Hero has is with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
5 folds, CO raises to t3600, 2 folds, Hero calls t2000.

Flop: (t6200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t6200) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t6400, CO raises to t14400, Hero calls t8000.

River: (t35000) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks.
Final Pot: t35000

Pot size is messed up because they don't count antes. What is a good stars converter? No real reads.

curtains · #2 05-20-2007, 09:51 PM

I would almost always reraise preflop as opposed to calling. Cmon the guy raises to barely more than 2x BB on the cutoff with all these antes, flat calling is a crime IMO.

I think I would usually bet the flop. Fold equity not so important here IMO, because if you checkraise I think you are played with by any real hand that would raise you on the flop. And the ones that don't call you will fold to allins on the flop. I mean there is a chance you could bet 4k on the flop, get raised and still get your opponent to fold. And if they don't fold they probably weren't going to if you checkraised either. But okay whatever, checking should be fine because nothing too terrible can happen. If they check behind you will almost always bet the turn and win the pot there a decent % of the time, or make the nuts. Also forgive me if that was incoherent.

River I bet of course, you probably lose all chips to full house anyway whats the point of checking? Meanwhile you give up ridiculous value if he plans on calling you with a pretty good hand, but will check behind after you. Probably unlikely he goes for a stone cold bluff. Even if your plan is that he will bluff with zero there are tons of more likely scenarios that could occur if you simply bet. He could easily have some club or a pair and a club.

You are hoping he bets like 10k and leaves you with a few chips? You plan to fold to a river bet? I just don't like that check at all. You have 19k and the pot is 35k. Bet something for sure.

But ok cliffnotes

Don't like PF at all.
flop is close, not really sure what's best
turn seems fine (although would probably bet a touch less)
river seems terrible

ItalianFX · #3 05-20-2007, 09:58 PM

Why are you checking the river?

sabes · #4 05-20-2007, 10:04 PM

Call pf is fine, although a raise could be a good play here as well depending on reads on CO.

Flop I think I might lead out 3/4 pot to see if he's really serious about the hand. If he has an overpair he'll probably raise enough to push you off the hand, but at least you won't have lost too much. Remember that you're OOP so it'll be hard to extract much value out of your flush if the 4th club comes.

Turn you pick up a OESD and I think if he had any sort of hand he'd want to bet the flop. I think a full pot bet on the turn is good because ideally you'd want villain to fold right here, you have lots of outs but not a made hand. He makes a fishy raise which could mean several things. A flush could check behind the flop, and he could have just turned a straight with JT as well, but I'd consider those possibilities unlikely. I'd strongly consider 3-bet pushing into his raise here, because even if he does have a hand like JT or a flush you'll still have at least 7 live outs (and that's if he already has 2 clubs in his hand). He could also have a hand like A9 that you might have some FE against (not a ton I don't think, but enough), and even if he calls with a hand like that you have outs from OESD as well. I think a call is also ok but a push is better as it will be hard to extract much value on the river if you hit, and the pot is already very large and worth taking down here. Calling is definitely an option though.

River I think you could lead small here, like 1/4 to 1/3 pot because if he has a 9 or JT he might pay off, but a check to induce a value bet from a hand like Kc or Qc is fine as well. I don't think he'd value bet a bare 9 here, but certainly a boat like 98 (while unlikely) would have to bet here as well and would raise over bet if you led out, which would be another argument for checking here.

curtains · #5 05-20-2007, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Call pf is fine, although a raise could be a good play here as well depending on reads on CO.

Flop I think I might lead out 3/4 pot to see if he's really serious about the hand. If he has an overpair he'll probably raise enough to push you off the hand, but at least you won't have lost too much. Remember that you're OOP so it'll be hard to extract much value out of your flush if the 4th club comes.

Turn you pick up a OESD and I think if he had any sort of hand he'd want to bet the flop. I think a full pot bet on the turn is good because ideally you'd want villain to fold right here, you have lots of outs but not a made hand. He makes a fishy raise which could mean several things. A flush could check behind the flop, and he could have just turned a straight with JT as well, but I'd consider those possibilities unlikely. I'd strongly consider 3-bet pushing into his raise here, because even if he does have a hand like JT or a flush you'll still have at least 7 live outs (and that's if he already has 2 clubs in his hand). He could also have a hand like A9 that you might have some FE against (not a ton I don't think, but enough), and even if he calls with a hand like that you have outs from OESD as well. I think a call is also ok but a push is better as it will be hard to extract much value on the river if you hit, and the pot is already very large and worth taking down here. Calling is definitely an option though.

River I think you could lead small here, like 1/4 to 1/3 pot because if he has a 9 or JT he might pay off, but a check to induce a value bet from a hand like Kc or Qc is fine as well. I don't think he'd value bet a bare 9 here, but certainly a boat like 98 (while unlikely) would have to bet here as well and would raise over bet if you led out, which would be another argument for checking here.

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If I bet and get raised theres 0 chance I'm folding. Don't forget an ace will often be good as well.

sabes · #6 05-20-2007, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call pf is fine, although a raise could be a good play here as well depending on reads on CO.

Flop I think I might lead out 3/4 pot to see if he's really serious about the hand. If he has an overpair he'll probably raise enough to push you off the hand, but at least you won't have lost too much. Remember that you're OOP so it'll be hard to extract much value out of your flush if the 4th club comes.

Turn you pick up a OESD and I think if he had any sort of hand he'd want to bet the flop. I think a full pot bet on the turn is good because ideally you'd want villain to fold right here, you have lots of outs but not a made hand. He makes a fishy raise which could mean several things. A flush could check behind the flop, and he could have just turned a straight with JT as well, but I'd consider those possibilities unlikely. I'd strongly consider 3-bet pushing into his raise here, because even if he does have a hand like JT or a flush you'll still have at least 7 live outs (and that's if he already has 2 clubs in his hand). He could also have a hand like A9 that you might have some FE against (not a ton I don't think, but enough), and even if he calls with a hand like that you have outs from OESD as well. I think a call is also ok but a push is better as it will be hard to extract much value on the river if you hit, and the pot is already very large and worth taking down here. Calling is definitely an option though.

River I think you could lead small here, like 1/4 to 1/3 pot because if he has a 9 or JT he might pay off, but a check to induce a value bet from a hand like Kc or Qc is fine as well. I don't think he'd value bet a bare 9 here, but certainly a boat like 98 (while unlikely) would have to bet here as well and would raise over bet if you led out, which would be another argument for checking here.

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If I bet and get raised theres 0 chance I'm folding. Don't forget an ace will often be good as well.

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This is true, I guess I didn't think about the flop very hard. I think I'd still be happier 3-betting the turn as opposed to the flop though, as when villain raises a flop bet he's going to show up with an overpair much more often than the turn after checking the flop behind.

Pudge714 · #7 05-20-2007, 10:18 PM

Just some thoughts here. Preflop is a shove, I don't know what I was thinking, but I called with the intention of checkshoving a lot of flops. I think betting this flop is really bad. People cbet pretty high frequencies and I have a really good stack to check shove with. I feel I lose a lot of value from bluffs by betting this flop and get stuck in a lot of bad turn spots if I blank off.
The river is close. My thinking was he can never call without a club and he bets the flop with most clubs so check and hope he makes a stupid bluff.

Edit: This isn't the Million. It is the 109 FO IIRC. Maybe the 55 double stack. Or maybe the 25k gtd. I dunno something like that.

curtains · #8 05-20-2007, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just some thoughts here. Preflop is a shove, I don't know what I was thinking, but I called with the intention of checkshoving a lot of flops. I think betting this flop is really bad. People cbet pretty high frequencies and I have a really good stack to check shove with. I feel I lose a lot of value from bluffs by betting this flop and get stuck in a lot of bad turn spots if I blank off.
The river is close. My thinking was he can never call without a club so check and him make a stupid bluff. I feel most big clubs will bet this flop.

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Probably right about the flop, especially since free card is not a problem. Yeah I like checking the flop, my bad. I definitely don't like Preflop and river. Who the hell knows what these moron Snuday $215 donkeys will do if you bet. Personally I don't expect one of them to fold to a 6-8k bet here if they have a nine.

hamnegger · #9 05-20-2007, 10:41 PM

i have no problem w the preflop call. pot odds play. wer'e not ovecommitting ourselves to a mediocre hand. see a flop and go from there. i lead 3 bet all in this flop but cr all in is ok too . the turn call is ok you still have enough to come back in the tourn if you miss the draw. you goofed not shoving the river. you called the turn for implied river odds. he has an overpair or air not a boat.

Pudge714 · #10 05-21-2007, 05:35 PM

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i have no problem w the preflop call. pot odds play. wer'e not ovecommitting ourselves to a mediocre hand. see a flop and go from there. i lead 3 bet all in this flop but cr all in is ok too . the turn call is ok you still have enough to come back in the tourn if you miss the draw. you goofed not shoving the river. you called the turn for implied river odds. he has an overpair or air not a boat.

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This is pretty much never an overpair.