SSH quiz hand

HenkvanderMast · #1 05-13-2007, 02:34 PM

I'm rereading SSH and in the turn quiz hands there was one I would have played differently. I'm sorry if I'm just polluting the forum but I would really like some help on this one. Here it comes(p. 292):

You have 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button. Three players limp, you limp, the small blind calls, and the big blind checks(6 small bets). The flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], giving you a flush draw. The small blind checks, the big blind bets, and two of the three limpers call. You raise. The small blind folds, and the big blind and limpers call(7 big bets). The turn is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Everyone checks to you. What should you do?

tyler_cracker · #2 05-13-2007, 02:40 PM

i check. i don't think it's close. the book agrees with me.

so what is your question?

HenkvanderMast · #3 05-13-2007, 02:44 PM

I don't understand the sentence: You cannot bet for value because you are a 4:1 underdog wwhile you have only three opponents.

If the pot is laying you 7 to 1, why is it -ev to bet?

It's probably pretty obvious but I don't see it.

Bona · #4 05-13-2007, 02:57 PM

Because you don't have a hand yet.

The reasons for raising the flop included setting up the possibility of a free peek at the river if you miss the turn. We missed the turn and therefore take the free card. Too bad some of my plans don't work that well [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

nomadtla · #5 05-13-2007, 03:13 PM

In answer to the flop question:
you have a flushdraw which will make a flush by the river about 35% of the time (a tad better then 2:1). There was a bet and 2 calls of that bet. If you raise you will put in 2 bets, but it is almost certain that the bettor and 2 callers will also put in another bet. So on the flop 4 players (including you) are putting in 2 bets. You are putting in 25% of the bets going in on the flop with a 35% chance of winning by the river. You don't have a made hand but you have a strong enough draw and enough players trapped to raise for value since you will win this pot a larger % of the time then the % of the pot you are contributing this street. The fact that you're on the button and your raise may gain you a free card is simply a bonus.

For the turn question:
I am not entirely sure what you are getting at by talking about the pot laying you 7:1 that's really a thought for when you are calling. You raised the flop and the feild gave you a free card. It is very unlikely that you have the best hand and betting now does not have the equity of betting on the flop since it is less likely they all will call. So you check.

What the pot is "laying" you in this situation would only count if you thought of semi-bluffing and wanted to know how offten all your opponents had to fold to make a bluff worth it. Calculating that + the chance of hitting you could decide the EV of betting here. I think it is not close I would check and take the free card.

tyler_cracker · #6 05-13-2007, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the sentence: You cannot bet for value because you are a 4:1 underdog wwhile you have only three opponents.

If the pot is laying you 7 to 1, why is it -ev to bet?

It's probably pretty obvious but I don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

with 3 opponents, you are getting 3:1 on a bet (assuming everyone calls). since you are a 4:1 underdog to make your hand, you actually *lose* money by putting in bets right now.

go back and read Part 1: Gambling Concepts. especially the section Pot Equity, starting on p. 35.

hth.

Fantam · #7 05-13-2007, 03:37 PM

Without cheating and looking at SSHE, presumably check behind and take a free card.

HenkvanderMast · #8 05-13-2007, 03:45 PM

Thanks for the answers, I see I was mixing up the terms pot equity and pot odds. Time for some re-re-reading.

bravos1 · #9 05-13-2007, 03:48 PM

you don't have enough equity to bet for value and your bet is -ev. The pot isn't "laying" you any odds as you are not required to call any bet. Pot Odds only comes into play when you have to call a bet.

Pot Odds of 7:1 mean that the current pot is 7 bets big and you need to call 1 bet. In order to call this profitably, you need to win more that 1 out of every 8 times (12.5%).