25NL where Hero butchers yet another AK TPTK

jimpo · #1 05-11-2007, 03:06 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($50.25)
BB ($19.75)
UTG ($25)
MP ($38.70)
CO ($24.65)
Button ($5.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 1 fold, CO calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.5, Hero raises to $10.75, CO raises to $21.15, Hero calls $10.40.

Villain is unknown, 8 hands in PT afterwards.

I have been check-raising "good" 3bet pot flops quite a lot. Like when I have AK and hit TPTK, as in here, my thinking goes something like: "This is as good flop as it gets with AK so I am pretty much felting this hand. If I bet out I will not win anything extra from worse hannd so I might as well check-raise to win something extra when I am ahead".

I guess this is partly tilting. It seems there is never a spot where AK TPTK is actually good for me.

Please fix my brain, what is wrong with me? Should I bet out & fold to a raise by default?

I realize now, afterwards, that there are not many hands that villain calls 3 bet with and that I still beat (TT, KJ?, lower pocket pairs maybe). How could I make myself realize the same thing in the heat of the action?

Also on the flop I made a mistake with bet sizing. I somehow though my raise would leave villain with only 6$ or so and would commit me to the pot if he pushed. Then when he pushed I realized he still had > 40bb left. Then I called anyway since I had put that plan already in my mind [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Grunch · #2 05-11-2007, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please fix my brain, what is wrong with me?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with you is that you are only looking at the absolute value of your hand. You are not looking at the relative value of your hand in comparison to villan's likely range.

This is a re-raised pot. Villan called in position. Chances are excellent that he has 2 cards that are Jack or higher. He may have a pocket pair Jacks+. Now look at the board. Assuming the Villan has 2 cards Jack or higher, what is the relative strength of your hand?

There is not a chance in Hell I would check-raise this flop. Can you come up with another line?

4_2_it · #3 05-11-2007, 03:18 PM

I will both bet or check flops after 3-betting and it's more driven by board texture than my actual cards. If the board looks like it hit me, but really didn't, I will bet (in your hand if I had TT I would bet out). If I want to rep TT on the flop I will check call the flop with plans to CR the turn AI as long as I have a read that villain stacks off light otherwise I might play it as WA/WB and check call down.

Here, the board is wet and likely to have hit villain. I need to decide how best to extract from worse hands while not get stacked by better hands. Pot control is difficult OOP, but that doesn't mean you have to give up. I rule out a flush draw (only logical one is something like JT or 67), as being a big part of his range and check call the flop. Having the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] means you have a nice redraw should a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hit the turn.

As long as you mix up betting and checking with made hands then you will not be that exploitable in these situations.

CazicT · #4 05-11-2007, 03:25 PM

Well, I don't particulary like check/raising because either you are going to win a little more or lose alot more or you'll be offering a free card. I think especially since the pot is already fairly big because of the preflop action, check/raising just commits you to a pot when you have a good but not great hand.

jimpo · #5 05-11-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There is not a chance in Hell I would check-raise this flop. Can you come up with another line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

- check-folding seems so passive and wimpy that I am not really considering it
- bet-folding the flop is a bit more aggressive, at least that way I usually win the 30bb when I am ahead. That fails to extract money from weaker hands, but given the preflop there are not many weaker ones to consider (although KK and AA are not that likely since he did not raise my 3bet. I would think range has more TT-QQ,AK,AQ and I am not that bad against that range. Some opponents may have KQ as well....
- bet-calling: I don't think I can call if he raises my flop bet. He'd have to be pretty aggressive to do that on a draw with the board that has very likely hit me and with the amount I have already committed to the pot, and if he does that for value he must have TPTK beaten most of the time or be a nutcase.
- check-calling is a bit passive and I feel I will have really hard time playing the remaining streets that way. Maybe 4_2_it could comment a bit more on his plan for the rest of the hand? What do you do on club/non-club turn?

So far 4_2_it has suggested check-calling, any other suggestions? I guess I like check-calling here since I have the nut flush runner runner and my equity can change quite a bit on turn, if I had just AK without the flush possibilities I guess I would be more into bet-folding. I dunno, I just don't feel too comfortable with any of options.

Grunch · #6 05-11-2007, 05:13 PM

42it might be advocating check-raising, I'm not sure.

4_2_it · #7 05-11-2007, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
42it might be advocating check-raising, I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. I like a check call. I really do not see a check raise accomplishing much on any street in this particular hand. This would seem to be a WA/WB situation on the flop so I'd play it for pot control vs max value.