Spew or semi-bluff?

[Neku]

Not sure what to make of this. I had an OESD on the turn, was checked to, and thought: maybe I can pick it up right here and now, and if not I have 8 outs to the nuts (plus an overcard, but I don't tend to get carried away by that anymore [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Thoughts?

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 6 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: 5BB

[tyler_cracker]

raise preflop. not doing so is a pretty big mistake.

the pot is tiny, so i'm not sure semibluffing into 3 opponents is worth it because it has to work very, very often.

[bravos1]

raise PF..
check behind turn - the pot is SOOOO tiny and you have like 0% of taking it down on the turn.

[Aaron W.]

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raise preflop. not doing so is a pretty big mistake.

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Meh. Limping is fine if UTG is reasonably tight (30 VPIP). You're not that far ahead of his hand range.

I might bet the flop. It's so ragged and disconnected that K-high might be good against three checks.

I check behind on the turn because the pot is too small relative to the bet size to make it a good semi-bluff.

[bravos1]

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raise preflop. not doing so is a pretty big mistake.

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Meh. Limping is fine if UTG is reasonably tight (30 VPIP). You're not that far ahead of his hand range.

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True, but taking the initiative in position here is a very good thing and a c-bet will take down quite a few pots when you both miss.

[tyler_cracker]

i dunno, aaron. investing 1 more SB to isolate a limper is so awesome that not doing it is a mistake. this is especially true against an unknown utg limper at .25. i'm not a big believer in "initative" arguments (sorry eric), especially in LHE, but there is some cbet/free turn card value as well.

[Aaron W.]

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i dunno, aaron. investing 1 more SB to isolate a limper is so awesome that not doing it is a mistake. this is especially true against an unknown utg limper at .25. i'm not a big believer in "initative" arguments (sorry eric), especially in LHE, but there is some cbet/free turn card value as well.

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There are enough other factors to consider that this isn't an automatic raise.

1) Villain's VPIP
2) The VPIP of the blinds from the blinds
3) Villain's postflop play

By limping, you allow the blinds to come in with T5s and K2o and other hands that won't be able to fold, allowing you multiple streets of solid value betting as opposed to a c-bet and pray.

[bravos1]

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i dunno, aaron. investing 1 more SB to isolate a limper is so awesome that not doing it is a mistake. this is especially true against an unknown utg limper at .25. i'm not a big believer in "initative" arguments (sorry eric), especially in LHE, but there is some cbet/free turn card value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are enough other factors to consider that this isn't an automatic raise.

1) Villain's VPIP
2) The VPIP of the blinds from the blinds
3) Villain's postflop play

By limping, you allow the blinds to come in with T5s and K2o and other hands that won't be able to fold, allowing you multiple streets of solid value betting as opposed to a c-bet and pray.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given no read.. I always assume standard monkey, and at the .25, I am ahead of standard monkey's PF limp range, even if slightly and can out play post-flop.

[bravos1]

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i'm not a big believer in "initative" arguments (sorry eric), especially in LHE, but there is some cbet/free turn card value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with you, but this spot is perfect for it. I think of "initiative" in limit as a bit differently than in NL.

In NL, you can take the initiative w/ ATCs and play properly. This is very hard to do in limit outside of blind battles (even then it's not so good). So don't think of it as the same definition that is used in the NL sense.

[Aaron W.]

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Given no read.. I always assume standard monkey, and at the .25, I am ahead of standard monkey's PF limp range, even if slightly and can out play post-flop.

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But if this is the case, do you also assume that standard monkeys in the blinds will cooperate often enough to let you isolate?