Question about W$WSF for 6max

Norb · #1 05-11-2007, 01:10 AM

I have recognized that my W$WSF (Won when saw Flop) Value is far too low in my 6max gamedata (below 30%). Now I have some questions about this.

I've read that a good W$WSF value should be at least 35%. I have seen that some people around here have posted own values of amazing 42% or 44%! What does this difference in case of 6max play mean? Do they play far superior? What is a good W$WSF value for 6 max games? Is this value the same as in full ring games?

Also I have questions about the possible causes of my low W$WSF value. Could this be:

1.) my poor postflop play needs improvement [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
2.) my postflop play is too cautious and I fold too many hands that could be winners [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
3.) My competition plays very loose, a lot of villains stick in the pot all the way to the river
4.) I'm on a downswing
5.) any other possibilities?
6.) ???

Thanks very much for your help!

Best regards, Norbert

Leader · #2 05-11-2007, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
#1 I'm on a downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

MAxx · #3 05-11-2007, 02:16 AM

my last 106k hands has been at 42.71. It's actually been a pretty bad run in terms of BB/100.

If I had to guess when I am running above 40, I am highly likely to be having a profitable session and when I am running below 40 I am highly likely to be losing.

If I hit 35 or my god 30 I would guess I am dropping mad loot.

There is obviously not perfect correlation because not all pots won are the same size.

Leader · #4 05-11-2007, 02:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
my last 106k hands has been at 42.71. It's actually been a pretty bad run in terms of BB/100.

If I had to guess when I am running above 40, I am highly likely to be having a profitable session and when I am running below 40 I am highly likely to be losing.

If I hit 35 or my god 30 I would guess I am dropping mad loot.

There is obviously not perfect correlation because not all pots won are the same size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually running high over the long run is usually bad. It tends to mean you're pushing people out of a lot of pots or playing in tight games.

Could result from playing a lot very shorthanded as well.

MAxx · #5 05-11-2007, 02:32 AM

Interesting as I usually try to scout out loose tables and feel like while I am fairly aggressive at 2.5/2.1/1.6, I do not move people off pots very often. Something to think about tho. Showdown stats are 35.4/55.6.

Leader · #6 05-11-2007, 02:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting as I usually try to scout out loose tables and feel like while I am fairly aggressive at 2.5/2.1/1.6, I do not move people off pots very often. Something to think about tho. Showdown stats are 35.4/55.6.

[/ QUOTE ]

donno. It's an amalgamation of so many factors it's hard to make any real sense of it with out knowing almost everything from where you play to the limit to how you actually play. Mostly though if it's low or high over a small sample it as to do with how you're running. Over the long run other factors like your style and game selection effect it more.

Norb · #7 05-11-2007, 05:43 AM

If I look at my full ring statistics, my W$WSF is always greater than 35%, at the lowest limits that I have played it is even greater than 40%. How can this be? Does the different character of 6max games have such a great impact on the value of this parameter?

Oink · #8 05-11-2007, 05:51 AM

There is no such thing as a good W$WSF number. It depends on the average number of players seeing the flop.

If there is 6 player to the flop in every hand then a W$WSF above 16% is pretty good. If there is only 2 players to the flop then a W$WSF below 50 is pretty bad.

Find the average number of players seeing the flop. Your fair share of #times you win is then 1 dived by that number. Since you should see the flop with better cards than your opponents (on average) a good W$WSF should be above your fair share.

Say there is 2.5 players to the flop on average, then your fair share is 1/2.5 = 40%. A good W$WSF should be somewhere around 42%-46%. If there is 3.5 players on average to the flop then a W$WSF around 35% is pretty good.

So in short: It depends! You cannot analyse the W$WSF without a consideretaion of the number of players to the flop.

Verde · #9 05-11-2007, 06:34 AM

I think you're wrong Oink, but there is clearly a connection between #of players and SF%. Or I'm just analyzing the number wrong, wouldn't be the first time...
According to my database average # of plys is 4.95 and SF% 40.76 (which I think is standard for 6max) so average player that sees the flop is 2.
I filtered for 1000 hands and almost no one had a W$WSF above 50%. Around 42%-46% seamed more likely for a winning player.
I think that much money comes from when you steal the pot pre flop.

Oink · #10 05-11-2007, 08:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
According to my database average # of plys is 4.95 and SF% 40.76 (which I think is standard for 6max) so average player that sees the flop is 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am not wrong. The numbers you mention are not standard. If you play low limit tables that are always full you can have average # pls at 5.5 and a SF% around 60%. A good W$WSF is anything above 33%.

I play Party where the tables are almost always full but pretty tight (5/T and T/20) a W$WSF below 40% is pretty bad here.