LOLIDONKEDU

[donger]

Villain here is newer in these games but has standard TAGgy stats (30/22/1.9)

STandard?
Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $15/$30
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Donger is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Donger raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, 2 folds, Donger calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.67SB, 2 players)
Donger checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Donger raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.83BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Donger bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Donger calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9.83BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Donger bets</font>..

[Entity]

I'd usually cap preflop. Not always though. I don't donkbet this river because I don't know of any 30/22/1.9 players who don't bet the river for me and obviously I'm not folding to a raise. They will fold their busted spade/heart draw and will raise with better hands and QJ/KQ, so I'd rather just let them fire one more time with busted spade/hearts and with all better hands and even some worse ones like JJ/TT that they call with anyway.

Rob

[yourface]

why not 3bet the turn instead? this river card doesn't change anything. now when 4 bets go in on the big streets you're likely behind.

I cap preflop btw, and as played I would call down from the turn raise.

[whodaman]

why are you doing this? Is he freeshowdown raising a lot?

Its not a bluff so your doing it for value, but I think its FPS

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
why not 3bet the turn instead? this river card doesn't change anything. now when 4 bets go in on the big streets you're likely behind.

I cap preflop btw, and as played I would call down from the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this was an inventive way to play this hand. It's become super fashionable these days (at least on absolute) to raise/fold this turn with small pairs and showdownable ace-high hands. If I 3bet this turn, his better hands are capping and then I'm forced to call this river. (5 bets total on two streets). As played, I lose 4 bets when I'm raised on the river.

If he has a mediocre hand like a middling pair or AK/AJ, he folds when I 3bet the turn and I get 2 bets. My way, I gain an extra bet as I think he doesn't fold any of these hands on the river.

Entity: I think he has to be a gonzo value bettor to be betting the bottom 2/3s of his range when I'm ahead here. Also, given the PF action, I think his range is really weighted toward pairs/ace high type hands and less toward straight/flush draws

There are also metagame considerations. Being raise-folded by mediocre hands when OOP sucks and this should at least discourage perceptive opponents and set up some weird lines for later.

Anyway, that was my thinking. You guys still think its that bad?

[Zele]

I think it's a pretty cool line given your description of the game dynamic. It's interesting how waiting a street usually changes FSD bet/folds into calls.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

Entity: I think he has to be a gonzo value bettor to be betting the bottom 2/3s of his range when I'm ahead here. Also, given the PF action, I think his range is really weighted toward pairs/ace high type hands and less toward straight/flush draws

There are also metagame considerations. Being raise-folded by mediocre hands when OOP sucks and this should at least discourage perceptive opponents and set up some weird lines for later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the metagame reasons apply at all in these games and I seriously think you're inventing reasons and ranges in the first part that don't valuebet here that call. Basically I'm saying if he has AJ he doesn't call that often and if he has 77 he doesn't not bet it as often as you seem to think, and you still have to deal with the fact that you're losing any chance to get a bet from heart and flush draws which will often, in this game, fire the river again when they've bluffed the turn. And they will, of course, bluff the turn. My guess offhand is you're going to see something like 20% FSDR's, 50% legit hands, and 30% bluffs in these games. Maybe 25% FSDR's vs 50/25 other two. Let's say he has:

JT+, 66+

You're preventing any hands from bluffing and only really inducing a call, if you're incredibly lucky, out of a rare AK-type hand that FSDR'd the turn. Generally they won't bet AK on the river and might call with it like 15-20% of the time, but as for AT and AJ, I think that chance is relatively nonexistent. Offhand I'd wager that there are less than 12 combos of Ax hands that would pay off here that don't bet anyway. So maybe 12 Ax, 6x 77, 6x88. So 24 combos you get 1 more bet from, on a lucky day. In these games I'm reasonably certain TT and JJ bet the river vs you for value, so you earn nothing there. You lose 2 bets to 1 combo of QQ, 3 of 99, .5 of 55 (weighted 1/2 b/c they usually 3bet PF with that hand but not always and don't always peel flop), 6 to KK and 6 to AA. So basically you win 24BB extra by betting (even if we say TT and JJ don't bet the river 1/2 the time that's only 30BB) and you lose back 31BB by bet-calling in that spot. So you can kinda see that unless you get super generous with his calling range and/or super generous with his bluffraising range it's a bit tough to equal out. Then you have to factor in the chance, albeit small, that he 3barrels hands like JTs (4), KTss (1), KThh (1).

You seem to think your line looks like a bluff. I don't think it looks like a bluff at all, though I don't think it looks quite as strong as it is. Often I see this exact line from hands that are basically K9-ish.

As is I think it looks cutesy and creative but isn't actually as good as it looks. And if you posted the villain's name here I'd be able to more accurately assess it but I think it's just bad straight up, possibly worse if I had a specific read.

Rob

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Very bad pointless river bet.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
Very bad pointless river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you think that's a little harsh? I talked to buffsta about this on msn and he said he would have check called b/c he hates bet/folding, but that the way I played it wasn't bad and just different. I was trying to vary my play and frustrate a specific (and overused) line.

Can't something be different without being "very bad" and "pointless?"

Results (oriented): villain had 66, MHIG.

[danzasmack]

i started doing this because i was seeing like AJo here a ton. I like the hand overall. well played.

You were bet/calling the river right? Sucks when he has KK but oh welllllll.