3/6 LO8, Too much jam again?

Fiasco · #1 05-08-2007, 04:41 PM

UTG is David Chiu (Good, Highly aggressive. Smart borderline LAG). MP player havent played with much looks very loose preflop. Comments on every street are fine.

I guess the question in my mind is: Given that I can easily be up against a wrap and a flush draw, do I really want to put in so many bets on the flop and turn? (especially knowing I may have to pay off) Speaking of paying off, do I have to make the crying call on the river? (Is there any way im up against two lows, and nobody has the flush or a higher set? I guess I DO have to call, nevermind that part)

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Fiasco is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Fiasco calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
Fiasco checks, UTG bets, MP1 raises, Fiasco 3-bets, UTG caps, MP1 calls, Fiasco calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.25BB, 3 players)
Fiasco checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, Fiasco raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (15.25BB, 3 players)
Fiasco checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, Fiasco calls.

Results:
Final pot: 18.25BB
MP1 showed Th 2h Tc 8c
UTG showed Ad 3c 4c Ah
Fiasco mucks 7h 4h As 4s

bbartlog · #2 05-08-2007, 05:01 PM

The turn action makes a higher set seem unlikely, no one 3-bet you. I think the flop 3-bet and turn raise are fine. Likewise I think you have to call the river - I'm sure you're up against the flush here most of the time, but opponents could also have A23T/A356/A234/A223 and so on without being suited in diamonds...

Colonel Ingus · #3 05-08-2007, 05:55 PM

MP1 is a nut nut.

I think I might have led out the turn just to get a sense of where my hand was.

Fiasco · #4 05-08-2007, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I might have led out the turn just to get a sense of where my hand was.

[/ QUOTE ] I find this "getting a sense of where your hand is" to be highly overrated. Lets say that I lead the turn and that Chiu raises me, what does that tell me about where my hand is? Lets say that I lead the turn and that everyone flat calls, what does THAT tell me about where my hand is?

I put Chiu on something like A3 with either a 5 or diamonds to go with. I had trouble putting MP on a hand because he was so loose preflop.

One other problem with leading the flop is that I want to trap MP1 in for another bet as I have him on an inferior holding. As a matter of fact he DIDNT have an inferior holding, but at the time I thought it made a lot of sense to trap his dead money with a checkraise.

Heron · #5 05-09-2007, 04:57 AM

At the turn I would try to keep the pot small. The K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is bad for you. It enables another flush draw and additional straight draws as well. What river cards are you looking forward to and how many of these are really safe?

The river call is mandatory IMO.

FuriousD · #6 05-09-2007, 05:33 AM

how bad is check-folding the flop given the action?

Fiasco · #7 05-09-2007, 06:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At the turn I would try to keep the pot small. The K is bad for you. It enables another flush draw and additional straight draws as well. What river cards are you looking forward to and how many of these are really safe?

[/ QUOTE ] This would be more of a concern if I was still up against a ton of players, but as were threehanded any my opponents hands are somewhat defined, its not so much of a worry. If somebody manages to backdoor a high straight or a flush then ill pay them off (Id probably check call a club, but bet a Q or J, not sure on a 9).

This isnt PLO8 or NLO8 so I dont need to know specifically which cards are safe, just that Im doing well vs my opponents ranges. If a river scare card comes I can always check call.

Edited to say: You might be right. Its not so much that Im in check fold territory now, but I might just think about check calling. Will need to think about this more. Clearly I cant post a hand asking for advise and then argure with everyone who takes a different line than me.

Fiasco · #8 05-09-2007, 06:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
how bad is check-folding the flop given the action?

[/ QUOTE ] In my mind that would be an awful play. Theres exactly one hand that has me in bad shape on this flop, and its not a hand that normally cold calls two bets preflop. The fact that I was actually up against this hand was a shame, but shouldnt effect the way we think about it.

Edited to say, notice that after three betting the flop I give MP1 a chance to cap. If he had I may start to get a picture of where I am. I also give him a chance to raise the turn which he doesnt take. There ARE places to get away from this hand, I jsut dont think that on the flop for two bets is the place to do it.

bodie · #9 05-09-2007, 11:10 AM

"This isnt PLO8 or NLO8 so I dont need to know specifically which cards are safe, just that Im doing well vs my opponents ranges."

I guess I don't see how you feel that you're doing well in this hand versus your opponents' ranges. You said you felt your opponents' hands were well-defined - what did you put them on? Pre-flop you have a hand with a lot of possibilities, and you're in the BB - however, on the flop you are getting sucked in with the worst part of your possibilities (imo): your low is ruined; your nut flush is not possible; all you have is a 2nd nut set. What would you think your opponents' range consists of here, as aggressively as they are betting? What can really help you to push you over the top? If the board pairs you have to worry about the higher boat possibilities.

I don't like this hand - I would be annoyed to find myself in it, because it's hard to fold a set - but with extremely aggressive betting from my opponents, unless I had reason to think they are just jamming for no reason, I would think about folding on the flop, or if not that, on the turn.

jedi · #10 05-09-2007, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how bad is check-folding the flop given the action?

[/ QUOTE ] In my mind that would be an awful play. Theres exactly one hand that has me in bad shape on this flop, and its not a hand that normally cold calls two bets preflop. The fact that I was actually up against this hand was a shame, but shouldnt effect the way we think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You've got middle set on a low board. You have a crap low draw so you're basically playing for 1/2 the pot. Assuming we don't know how the turn action goes, you could easily be putting in money with the 2nd best of it all the way. Even if villain doesn't have the TT, you're up against any number of combinations of hands that won't pay you off if they don't hit, or if you fill up.

Maybe I'm just weak tight, but I don't think check/folding is all that awful. I guess the fact that it's 3 handed helps matters as middle set is likely to be better here, but you're still playing for 1/2 the pot.