2 pair on 4 Flush board

[Nfinity]

Villian in this hand is unknown, just sat down a couple of hands ago. Involved in a couple of those hands and played fit or fold by the Turn. He bought in with the minimum (less than 12 BBs).

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

[kaby]

I think you have to b/f the turn. I don't think an unknown bluffs this river enough to make up for the value you loose by not betting the turn and worse hands call.

He took a shot on the flop, you raise, he calls which means he has well, a piece of the flop. Could be a gutshot, a heart or a pair, the turn sucks but I still think you are ahead often enough for a value bet. If he raises it's an easy fold I think.

A donkbet on the river would give you a hard decision though. So that's why maybe your line might be better. But still how often is he bluffing the river with a worse hand (high cards on the board, 4 flush)? Not much, but he might call your turn bet with a lot of those hands (Kx, hands like QT, 9T, mb every Qx).

[noob_sauce]

I play exactly the same.

I don't like betting the turn at all.
a.) we only make worse hands fold.
b.) bet/fold line is the suck because we lay down our equity to fill up
c.)IMO there is a reasonable chance villains will bluff this river w/ a hand we beat after we check through turn, whether it be in desperation or w/ a piece

FWIW I bet river if checked to.

[Absolution]

I play it like you did, but I probably fold the river against an unknown. Like noob_sauce said, betting the turn gives up your 4 outs and nothing will fold that you want to fold. I don't think 5-1 is enough to call on the river. He shouldn't expect to be called by anything worse if he doesn't have a flush. Also, your check on the turn is defensive and he might see this as you trying to get to showdown cheaply.

[StellarWind]

You created this problem and made a serious error by raising the flop.

There are 16 turn cards that leave you with no idea where you stand. If one of them comes you will be very glad you just called the flop because your information disadvantage can't be used against you. Just play WA/WB the rest of the way and you'll avoid both horrible free cards and being forced to fold live outs.

Calling the flop is also good when you get a safe or favorable turn. Regardless of whether he is bluffing, semibluffing, or has something he will probably bet again and you can hit him with a double-size raise with much better pot equity.

I don't know how to play the actual turn except to say that the consistent play is to bet. Raising a made hand in this situation and then taking a free card is almost always wrong someplace.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
...and nothing will fold that you want to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eeerhm if Hero is ahead, villain has 9 outs to a chop. Folding these has value, no?
As played I think Hero should either bet/fold or bet/call turn. If the game plays aggresively its a b/c and its a b/f if it plays passive.

But I agree with Steallarwinds post. Call flop and pop safe turns or get to SD on heart turns.

[kaby]

[ QUOTE ]
I play exactly the same.

I don't like betting the turn at all.
a.) we only make worse hands fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do worse hands really fold if they call the flop? Most hands that call the flop and we are ahead to on the turn are pairs or pairs+gutshot imho, and we want value from pairs (with or without a gutshot). Folding pairs+gutty out would be nice too as they have 5 outs to win and 9 outs to tie.

[Kvacke]

wait and raise a safe turn looks like a good option here. I think most people fire again on the turn when you just call.

[thepizzlefosho]

[ QUOTE ]
You created this problem and made a serious error by raising the flop.

There are 16 turn cards that leave you with no idea where you stand. If one of them comes you will be very glad you just called the flop because your information disadvantage can't be used against you. Just play WA/WB the rest of the way and you'll avoid both horrible free cards and being forced to fold live outs.

Calling the flop is also good when you get a safe or favorable turn. Regardless of whether he is bluffing, semibluffing, or has something he will probably bet again and you can hit him with a double-size raise with much better pot equity.

I don't know how to play the actual turn except to say that the consistent play is to bet. Raising a made hand in this situation and then taking a free card is almost always wrong someplace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the thought process here, but how do you handle the 4th heart on the turn if you call on the flop and villain leads again? fold, or call down assuming you are good often enough plus the 4 outs to the boat?

[Entity]

You absolutely have to bet the turn here. Generally I think I agree with Stellar with regard to the proper flop play but I will say that there are some opponents where I will power through on this flop.

Rob