25NL KJs -- Something I've been doing more and more . . .

Nick C · #1 05-06-2007, 05:12 AM

The wisdom of this play depends in part, I'll admit, on what Villain is going to do with his various possible holdings after my flop check. And, well, in this case Villain is 28/5/2 after 88 and hadn't played any big pots yet. For better or worse, I didn't anticipate any big overbets from him.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($4.60)
Hero ($54)
MP ($22.20)
Button ($32.70)
SB ($19.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero raises to $5 . . .

Thoughts? I think I would have played KJo the same way on the flop (but I would have called with that on the turn instead of raising).

I'm a player with mostly a limit background, and it feels weird to me to play this way, but I think maybe there's a legitimate rationale behind it.

creamfillin · #2 05-06-2007, 05:15 AM

Wtf at checking behind this flop. You basically turn the nuts (in more ways than one) into a bluff on the turn. Raising the turn here looks VERY strong. Seriously you bet the flop so when you hit the flush, it will be concealed.

lexxor · #3 05-06-2007, 05:16 AM

why no c-bet?

Nick C · #4 05-06-2007, 05:26 AM

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Wtf at checking behind this flop. You basically turn the nuts (in more ways than one) into a bluff on the turn. Raising the turn here looks VERY strong.

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Well, except that if I was really bluff-raising, I'd be hoping for a fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously you bet the flop so when you hit the flush, it will be concealed.

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Yeah, there is something to that. It's entirely possible this play would be better suited for a more aggressive opponent.

Nick C · #5 05-06-2007, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why no c-bet?

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I was thinking that on this particular flop only better hands, worse flush draws, and QT/QT/JT call me. So, yeah, there's some value in a bet versus a worse draw, but my thinking at the time was that that didn't make up enough of Villain's range.

The idea was that the only hands he'll play a big pot with are the ones I don't want to play a big pot with (at least not yet).

Still, I wasn't really expecting us to go all-in on the flop if I bet (although I would have grudgingly been willing to), so maybe the thing to do, really, was c-bet, deal with a checkraise if it comes, take the pot immediately instead a huge chunk of the time, and then (if I just get called) decide what to do on the turn after I get checked to again.

lexxor · #6 05-06-2007, 05:37 AM

you gave yourself the anwser i wanted to give [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
so maybe the thing to do, really, was c-bet, deal with a checkraise if it comes, take the pot immediately instad a huge chunk of the time, and then (if I just get called) decide what to do on the turn after I get checked to again.

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creamfillin · #7 05-06-2007, 05:41 AM

You're building a pot when you hit your flush, that's where the value is. He isn't going to lay down an ace.

Nick C · #8 05-06-2007, 05:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're building a pot when you hit your flush, that's where the value is. He isn't going to lay down an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I guess you think he will versus my turn power-raise?

If your answer is no, then I think my flop check makes more sense than you're giving it credit for. But if your answer is yes, then, yeah, I see what you're saying.

And there are percentages involved, I know, but I'm trying to make the transition over to NL, which is the reason for this post. (I would bet this flop pretty much always in limit.)

Nick C · #9 05-06-2007, 05:50 AM

This later hand is against the same guy:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($56.70)
MP ($22.20)
Button ($40.50)
SB ($16.50)
BB ($5.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($2.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25.

Final Pot: $4.75

How does it compare? (Is it just as bad, worse, or better?)

Spartak · #10 05-06-2007, 06:00 AM

I bet the flop mainly because we flopped a big hand and I want to start building the pot. I would only consider checking if I had a read that SB bets the turn with any two cards when flop is checked through.

I would often check a hand like this in a re raised pot though.