Strategy playing 3/6 with donkeys

[hofimax]

Hi guys,

I have problems maximizing my profit and therefore have some questions:

I'm regularly playing at a 3/6 full table game at our local casino (I would prefer higher limit but there is no table and I like playing offline). Of the other 8 players on the table 5-6 are complete donkeys just beeing there to see the flop and to draw to their gutshot or backdoor flush.
I would say ~4.8 people are seeing the flop every hand and it's quite often that 3 players give it up after a bet on the river-card because they missed their draw.
Game is extremly loose-passive, betting is hardly never 3 times or cap, calling stations.

I mostly play no-limit and I'm a solid winning player, but I have problems winning at these tables, and I don't know why.
I read "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em" and "Hold em Poker For Advanced Players" and my play is more or less based to this books, tight and aggressive.

But I watch myself constantly outdrawn on 4th and 5th street having TPTK or another quality hand because 5 people chasing their draw.

My question: Should I continue playing high quality hands (starting hand selection and position based on these books) or should I play any playable hand to see the flop and then decide (outs/odds/players) whether to continue.
I thought of these because I can see a flop for ~1.4 sb because of the passiveness.
I mean I will have a higher fluctuation, but I'm quite confident that my winnings will increase instead of playing tight.

I think that against one fish you get outdrawn sometimes but you win on the long run, but what do you do when you play against 5 fish and get outdrawn 5 times as often?

Thank you for your oppinions.
Markus

[DoubleFlop]

At 3/6 live, yes the suckouts are frequent and frustrating. Your variance can be high, but if you play simple straight forward poker, you will win. My suggestions below are for 3/6 live . . . If you play this way at higher stakes games, you are going to lose. Some adjustments are necessary.

#1 This is not NLHE. You are not going to be able to bet people off their draws and bluffing will rarely work into a large field like this. This is not to say you should become passive yourself. Bet your hands for value. If you think you have the best hand (or you want to find out if you have the best) bet/raise it. If you think you are behind and are not getting the odds to draw, fold.

#2 Don't get tricky. Slowplaying, trapping, check-raising is usually going to cost you in a game like this. These "trick" plays should only come out here and there, don't make them a habit. Don't worry about about playing too straightforward. Most of these players are just too loose or too stupid not to pay you off.

#3 Big starting cards are still the best, but you need to realize that the more people who see a flop, the less likely that top pair top kicker is going to win at showdown. In games like this, your drawing hands (suited connectors, Axs, all pairs) go up in value due to the large pot odds and implied odds you are getting.

#4. Know your odds. You may be getting the correct odds to suck out on them! Folding a hand when you are getting the correct odds to call is a mistake.

#5. If you are drawing, make sure to are drawing to the best hand. Drawing to a weak two pair when there are str8 and flush draws out there is just stupid. You can hit your hand and still lose.

#6 Raising on the flop (in position) to get a free-card on the turn works extremely well in games like this. NOTE: I did not call this a semi-bluff since that would imply that your oppenents are capable of folding.

#7 Be aware of signs of aggression. Since these players are fairly passive, watch out for sudden changes in the betting. If a guy suddenly check-raises a blank turn after check-calling the flop, watch out! He probably had a monster on the flop, or just turned a good hand . . . either way you are beat. If someone check-called the flop and the turn completes the flush draw and this guy bets out . . . he most likely has the flush.

#8. Learn to lay hands down. When you hold QQ against four opponents and the flop brings and Ace . . . someone has the Ace. If three opponents called the flop and the flush completes on the turn . . . someone probably has the flush.

#9 AGRESSION AGRESSION AGRESSION. Don't let these suckouts turn you into a passive calling station. If you have a hand bet/raise it. There is nothing worse than getting sucked out on and realizing that you could have gotten the winner to fold on the flop if you had 2 bet it. Remember that if your options are bet/raise, or call, the worst option is usually just calling (unless you are on a good draw and you don't want to force out other potential callers)

[hofimax]

Thanks for your comments, I'm totally aware that these low limit games are different from "normal" limit poker due to the hight implied odds and the non-existing folding-equity.

[ QUOTE ]

#3 Big starting cards are still the best, but you need to realize that the more people who see a flop, the less likely that top pair top kicker is going to win at showdown. In games like this, your drawing hands (suited connectors, Axs, all pairs) go up in value due to the large pot odds and implied odds you are getting.


[/ QUOTE ]

Starting-Hand selection is the question due to the implied odds.

Of course I do pre-flop raise with quality hands, but I question if I should not only play quality hands and suited (one gapped) connectors and pairs.

Am I right thinking that due to the high implied odds and because I can see the flop for 1.4sb avg. I could actually play hands like 10 7 offsuit. Even position is not that important preflop I think because auf the passiveness.
I can easily lay my trash hand down on the flop if I flop nothing or calculate my odds.

I have no empiric results on this, perhaps someone has?!?!

Thanks
Markus

[DoubleFlop]

Even at these really loose 3/6 games I would not be calling with trash hands. What are you hoping to flop with a T7o? Flush draws are out of the question. Your chance of flopping a str8 or and OESD are minimal. Flopping a single pair is real trouble with a hand like this. What you are really hoping for is flopping 2 pair or better. I haven't worked out the odds for that, but I am thinking you are a 22:1 dog in this situation. Do you think you are consistently getting the implied odds for such a longshot draw? Also take into account that some of the flops you want to see (i.e. trips) would bring a pretty scarey board, it might just kill your action (or you might be beat with a FH). This is a big difference between NLHE and limit. In NLHE you can ofen felt the donks with crazy hands like this (your implied odds can be huge). . . in limit you have to chip away a little at a time by making sound decisions.

[PorkchopDJG]

In losse/passive games you do need to play more hands in middle and late position after there are already a few limpers in the pot. With a few limpers you should definitely play all pairs, Ax suited, all suited connectors and one gappers from like 67 up. You win big pots by making big hands like straights, flushes and full houses so you need to play these types of cards and when you hit them bet/raise and the donks will pay you off. You usually need at least two pair to win when there are this many people in a hand and 3-4 usually make it to showdown.

[hofimax]

Thank you for you thoughts.
Am I right to think that in passive games where I can see the flop cheap pre-flop position is not that important (or generally position for all streets). Espicially pre-flop I think I could limp in with 57 suited even in early position because normally there will be a couple of callers and if somebody raises normally all limpers call as well. The odds should be OK.
In these games would you fold AJ unsuited after 3 limpers in front of you? Normally I do so because I mostly face difficulties with it.

Gracias
Markus

[BigBadBabar]

no, play any pair, any 2 broadway cards, and suited connectors and suited 1 gappers, and bet and raise like hell when you have a big hand. fold trash pf or fold the flop if you miss it completely, and value bet and wait for the long run [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Chino987]

from any position:

Ax sooted

all pairs

all suited connectors from 56s, one gappers from 64s

all sooted broadway

offsuit broaday down to KQo


these are playable in any position because they are easy to evaulate postflop.

late position

throw in KJo, KTo, K9o, QJo, JTo, Q9s, Q8s. sooted kings. these are only late position hands because they are harder to evaluate postflop.

with limpers in already raise all sooted broadway, all pairs 99+, offsuit broadway down to KQo.

this should get you started, feel free to make adjustments based on your comfort level/style of play.

[Bob T.]

No, I think position is very important in these games.

Let's pretend that you have some kind of suited connector, and you limp on or near the button. ( we can argue about whether or not you should be raising some other time. )

You get a flop.

There is some action in front of you, and you can now make a very good decision about whether or not to raise,call, or fold with only one bet invested. Let's say that you put in one bet, and six players saw the flop. You get a good flop, and everyone acts in front of you, there is a bet, and several callers, and you get to raise with some kind of equity advantage. Effectively, you have gotten something like 15-1 on your preflop limp. In early position, the same good flop, you might not be able to raise, because you would kill your postflop odds, so you only get 10-1 on your limp.

[DoubleFlop]

I still wouldn't be playing 57s from an early position. To call with hands like this you need to be in a later position with LOTS of callers and NO RAISE. In early position, you just don't know what the action behind you is going to be like.

Let's ignore for now that you are OOP for the rest of the hand (which is really important), and concentrate on what a raise preflop does to you. Take the following three scenarios.

#1 You limp UTG with 57s. There are two more limpers and then the button raises. The SB folds, the BB calls, you call (pretty much have to), the other two limpers call.

#2 You are on the button with 57s. There are two limpers, the CO raises, you (do you really want to call 2 cold here?) call, SB folds, BB calls, two limpers call.

#3 You are on the button. There are two limpers, you call, SB completes, BB checks.

In all three scenarios, you effectively got 4:1 odds on your money preflop. #1 and #2 just built bigger pots and cost you more to see the flop. Here's the problem . . . Let's say you think you need about 9:1 implied odds to make playing a 57s hand break even. In scenario #3 (where everyone limped) you already got 4:1 preflop, now you need to get 5 more bets of other player's money over the next 3 betting rounds to break even (5 * $3 = $15). This is certainly doable in a loose game. Now look at #1 and #2. Since there was a raise you need to get (5 * $6 = $30) of other player's money just to break even. This is going to be harder to do. It does not matter that you can lay hands down on the flop when you don't hit. It is still unprofitable to play longshot drawing hands unless you think you can get sufficient implied odds. If there is a raise preflop your chances of getting those implied odds goes down.