40/80 The nut nothing against a river donker

[Fianchetto]

One of the more tight/solid local prop players limps UTG, I raise A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP, everyone else folds. 2 players

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

check, i bet, he calls

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, i bet, he calls

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he bets..... what does he have and what's my play?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

I dont know what he has but I hope you atleast considered raising the river.

[HOWMANY]

I prefer fold over raising over calling. Folding first because you probably have the worst hand. Raise next because you may be able to get him to fold. Call last because of your description of him.

I think I fold because I either run bad at river raises or pick bad times to make them or both.

[ship it pls]

fold>raise>call, 85% fold 10% raise 5% call for me... maybe even higher toward fold... i think this is a clear value bet with the river being such a big brick - should be obvious that you will play back or call lightly on such a wierd donk, i think villain is bet/calling and i expect he has KJ-ish a lot here willing to risk being raised rather than risking check-check with tpmk

[ILOVEPOKER929]

I agree with HOWMANY and Ship it that folding and raising are both better than calling. IMO this is a raise or fold situation. When a solid player bets the river in that spot, he either has nothing or one pair the vast majority of time. This is why raising should be considered becuz if the villain is the type that doesnt like to pay off with one pair, assuming you raise the river in tempo, then raising can be the play. BTW, I am assuming this hand happened live. Raising the river is usually pointless online.

[elindauer]

Against a tight but aggressive player like the one you're describing your play is to raise. It's a value-bluff raise, the kind that serves two purposes: 1. snapping off bluffs from missed draws, and 2. bluffing out mediocre 1 pair hands.

You are basically describing the absolutely perfect opponent to make this play against... he's tight, so he may fold 1 pair to a raise. He's taken a WA / WB line, which means he may well be thinking about bet / folding. His hand range is dominated by 1 weak pair and bluffs here.

Put in the first bet because a million draws have missed. Put in the second bet because the first one is going in anyways and you're getting excellent odds to fold a mediocre hand for 1 more.

-Eric

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a tight but aggressive player like the one you're describing your play is to raise. It's a value-bluff raise, the kind that serves two purposes: 1. snapping off bluffs from missed draws, and 2. bluffing out mediocre 1 pair hands.

You are basically describing the absolutely perfect opponent to make this play against... he's tight, so he may fold 1 pair to a raise. He's taken a WA / WB line, which means he may well be thinking about bet / folding. His hand range is dominated by 1 weak pair and bluffs here.

Put in the first bet because a million draws have missed. Put in the second bet because the first one is going in anyways and you're getting excellent odds to fold a mediocre hand for 1 more.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasoning is sound but I think you underestimate just how rare it is that a live player will bet/fold the river HU. It just doesn't happen that often and unless Fianchetto has a history of being a weak unimaginative player (I'd lay 10:1 against), then I don't think its worth it.

With a physical read that he hates the K, I might change my mind though...

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Your reasoning is sound but I think you underestimate just how rare it is that a live player will bet/fold the river HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't argue with you there... I rarely play live. My limited experience is all in Vegas where guys seem to love to make big folds.

Out of curiosity... are you suggesting that live players don't fold after they have donked weak hands, or that they simply don't donk weak hands at all, and will generally only have a bluff / strong hand here?

thanks,
Eric

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the more tight/solid local prop players limps UTG, I raise A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP, everyone else folds. 2 players

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

check, i bet, he calls

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, i bet, he calls

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he bets..... what does he have and what's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he open limp with? ATs,KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs,JTs, T9s, 98s or perhaps some mid pocket pair. QJ is the only hand you beat out of likely open limpers. AJ possibly.

Just fold. The pot isn't offering you much and you don't have anything.

Of course, around here it is more popular to fold when you have good hands and the pot is large. So I guess putting more money in when you have nothing and the pot is small should make sense.

[OnlinePro]

I would think about raising this river, but you have to look back on your recent hands on the table. If you have not shown a river raise before, I think it might work. But if you have raised on the river and he has seen it, even if you won the pot I think it will make him more likely to call you.

Although with a pot so small I would favor not putting in 2 big bets against a player you call solid with nothing.

I tend to lean in favor of avoiding trying to outplay ABC players.

Although listening to elindauers argument makes me want to raise in these kinds of situations as well. He will definately be fearfull of many hands you might have that have him beat.