How is my line?

[Larude]

I don't have PO or PT on this PC so no specific numbers, just that UTG and UTG+1 are quit decent players (yeah for this level).

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.02/$0.05
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $4.82
Hero: $13.20
MP2: $5.18
CO: $5.42
Button: $2.88
SB: $1.55
BB: $2.99

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($0.35, 7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $0.35</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $0.7</font>, Hero calls, 5 folds.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($2.1, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2.1, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.5</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $3.1
<font color="#ffffff">Hero shows Ad 5d</font>

Especially want to ask you about the call. Is this a good spot to call rather then to reraise? First of all are many people to act behind, second of all we have a raise and a reraise (overpairs, two pair, toppair, straight), so if someone moves really big we can get out...? Third i thought the pot was so small and rather get some stupid callers with draws. Or are you people shove this every day and night? After the check of villain on the turn, do you like the check or move big time? Riverbet is much to less... but when he checked the river i thought wel he is very weak i think he wouldn't have called much more.

Second hand:

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.02/$0.05
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $4.03
UTG+1: $4.95
MP1: $5.08
MP2: $8.88
MP3: $2.37
Hero: $7.73
Button: $3.18
SB: $6.10
BB: $4.25

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($0.27, 5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($0.27, 5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets $0.37</font>, Hero calls, 3 folds.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1.01, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets $0.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, MP2 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $5.01
<font color="#ffffff">Hero shows 7d 8s</font>

Maybe looks stupid play... But i think on this flop we are wa/wb (7 higher kicker, set of nines, ). I don't mind any straight drawing gutshot hands come along because most of these need an 8 (JT or 56, which should be paying off because of my fullhouse). If I don't bet strong i might get weaker hands to come along on the turn. On the turn i just call not to get some callers with this monsterhand, prepairing to move in if someone raises (only fearing J8 or a set of sixes).

Or is it played to weak? Your comments please!

[Ikaika]

Hand 1 you need to raise flop. You want all the money in on the flop...you have NFD and a gutshot. Raise it to 2.8 and call a push, obv.

I don't know why you think the players in these hands are good players, they're limping like crazy. Bet the flop in Hand 2...it is unlikely that someone has the case 7 and if anyone has a 9 or PP they're coming along. Reads on how villains play straight draws would probably be helpful for the turn; if they play them slow then the call is ok, but otherwise this is a raise. If you play the hand differently on the flop it completely changes how things go later.

[worthy9]

For the first hand I would say your flop call is good, though I'm sure the argument can be made for raising. You have the gutshot straight and NFD and so calling a minraise when you're *probably* behind, with the potential of stacking a set/straight is ideal, IMO. A RR can only serve to price you out if they push, which they probably will with the kinds of hands you want them to hang themselves with. Your hand has value when you draw, so do so. You *are* sandwiched but given that there was a RR and a call behind, only monster hands (or dumba**es) will RR OOP on this coordinated board (and that's not likely). Call is good.

The turn check is good. You didn't hit your hand so taking a free card is just fine. Since UTG+1 checked the turn to you, they probably don't have a big hand (pot control). They were probably semi-bluffing a draw or have TPGK. Sets, two-pair and the like would most likely bet this out for fear of being outdrawn.

The river bet, while small, is marginally acceptable as well. I'd probably bet a 1/2 pot just to get *some* value but your analysis that they probably don't have a big hand is probably on target. NH.

[Ikaika]

[ QUOTE ]
For the first hand I would say your flop call is good. You have the gutshot straight and NFD and so calling a minraise when you're *probably* behind, with the potential of stacking a set/straight is ideal, IMO. A RR can only serve to price you out if they push, which they probably will with the kinds of hands you want them to hang themselves with. Your hand has value only when you draw, so do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Here you have 9 outs to the flush and 2 other 3's for the straight...you have 44% equity here, I don't really know how you can advocate NOT getting all your money in the middle ASAP.

[worthy9]

You're only going to get action when you're behind if you push. I agree that 44% + folding equity is good. No doubt. Like I said, the argument for raising can be made. I suppose it depends on the villain. Against a donk, I would call, as your folding equity is next-to-nil. Against a thinking player, I would raise. It's just that this is .02/.05. Make sense?

[Ikaika]

I agree that there isn't a whole lot of fold equity at 10NL, but you have to play your big hands fast(especially combo draws) so you can see more cards and take advantage of the equity you have on the flop since it plummets if the turn misses...otherwise its like burning money just calling bets and pitching the hand when you don't hit.

[worthy9]

Fair enough. Your point about seeing more cards without your equity plummeting is very true. That and scare cards (that make your hand) coming in on the turn will probably shut down most opponents; I'm probably off-base.

The way I was seeing it is that we've seen an OOP bet and then a raise on a coordinated board. This indicates strength. I like to trap in this situation but, now that I think more about it, when you make your hand the villain will likely figure it out and shut down. Again, this is entirely opponent-based.

Raising, on the other hand, will effectively disguise your hand and so functions better as a trap, plus you get the added potential of being checked to on the turn if they have a less-than-premium hand.

So now that we have that settled...[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Larude]

Yeah Ikaika i agree with you the problem in hand 1 is just that it isn't higher stakes where you are last to act here. By just calling hopefully more people will come along, and if the other guy then reraises, I would push indeed. By pushing now (these players are weak tight; although you also see hyperaggressive ones on these stakes) you are basically just getting called by sets. You absolutely have fold equity against overpairs, but do we want those overpairs to fold here? I don't think so because your ace is an out as well then... A case can be made indeed for semibluffing the turn (I had to when I look back I think!), he probably is weak after that check and will fold a lot of the time which is good.

Hand 2 I cannot see a good argument for betting. Your hand is vulnerable and you don't want to play a big pot with it. Of course your giving 108 and 86 a freeride which could hit a their straight. But by betting you don't force them out. Moreover you take gutshots along by not betting strong which could pay you big time if the 8 hits. Afther te turn 108 has made his straight and others a still drawing. By raising you force weaker hands out which you want to come along if an 8 flips and they make a straight while you hit it!!!

By the way thanks for your reactions, i now also see that I posted this one in the wrong forum, I will ask to move it to full ring.

[AJGibson]

H1 raise on the flop, there are so many cards in your draw.

Shove both hands on the river.

[KurtSF]

*grunch*

Hand 1, fold preflop. If you're going to play, raise it. On the flop, I probably reraise it - you've got a monster brewing. That said, with the small pot I don't mind the call really. Turn and river look OK, I might value bet a little more, but you got the call, so whatevs.

Hand 2, fold preflop. For the love of [censored] bet the flop. Turn is weak. What are you hoping to do here; what is your plan? I wouldn't mind a fold. River is fine.

Overall, you played trash hands, were weak and passive post flop, and got lucky on the river. Either (1) stop playing trash hands or (2) teach me how to luckbox the river too. Just MHO. Time to read the thread.