2/4 Razz Hand - Comments appreciated

[7n7]

Razz ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds

4th Street - (13.65 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (8.33 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (12.33 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (14.33 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (14.33 BB - $57.30)

[Andy B]

Ordinarily I like to keep the pot on the small side on third, but when you've got an Eight and a (teehee!) Queen taking all those raises, it would be criminal not to jam. This forces you to call fourth. Fifth came down lousy but no one knows that except you. I'd bet and hope that 744 has made trips. On sixth and seventh you can only check and call.

[Sp00n]

3bet 5th and rep a made T with a low draw

[7n7]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet 5th and rep a made T with a low draw

[/ QUOTE ]

I crunched some numbers at twodimes and if your opponent has a 4-card 7 in this spot, you're about a 3-3.5:1 dog depending on his cards. When he raised my 5th St. bet, I pretty much assumed that he indeed did have a live 4-card 7 draw. I didn't however, know that I was that big of a dog. If he did indeed have what he was representing, he'd be correct to cap it.

[minnesotasam]

You're surprised that his 7 draw had your T7 draw crushed?

[7n7]

[ QUOTE ]
You're surprised that his 7 draw had your T7 draw crushed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know I was 3-3.5:1 was all I was saying.

Does the above comment constitute your only contribution to the thread, or do you have an opinion as to how it should have been played?

[SGspecial]

The odds in razz can often be surprising, since most of us have our intuitions formed by playing HE or Stud. Most experienced players are so steeped in HE related probabilities at this point that, according to the CEO of the pro poker tools website, their omaha hi simulator is more popular than their HE version.

3-betting to represent a hand you don't have in this spot is a HE play. The raiser may be essentially asking if you paired also, but even if you reraise to answer "no" he knows he's drawing live. He may also know that even if you haven't paired his draw is stronger and he is a small favorite anyway. Against all but the weakest and least knowledgible players, you will get capped. As a 3:1 dog. 'nuff said...

[7n7]

[ QUOTE ]
The odds in razz can often be surprising, since most of us have our intuitions formed by playing HE or Stud.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Dang HE and Omaha games and their community cards. There are so many players out there that have no concept of Stud odds b/c they see them as more difficult to calculate.

I obviously have some work to do myself in that dept. I'm definitely in the category of too steep in HE probabilities and not enough in the other games.

So, agreed that the pot is too large to fold on 5th or 6th, correct?

[betgo]

The 3rd street jam in definately correct. Your cards are pretty live and you have bad door cards playing.

When you get raised on 5th, your opponent's hand is pretty much face up. You are about 27% to win on 5th and 25% to win on 6th. I think you are better folding to the raise on 5th. When you get to 6th, you probably have pot odds to call.

3-betting 5th is terrible. People often overdo aggression in razz. As the other poster implied, there is more information available in razz then limit holdem, so semibluffing is often not good.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting 5th is terrible. People often overdo aggression in razz. As the other poster implied, there is more information available in razz then limit holdem, so semibluffing is often not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the paraphrase betgo. I hope people don't misunderstand tho and think I meant you can't semibluff in razz. There are some spots where you can, but this ain't one of 'em. When highly skilled HE players insist on playing razz with the same menu of plays that kill in HE, they will spew copious amounts of chips. Hopefully, betgo and I will be around with a big bucket to catch them. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]