200/400 stars.......Strange hand

[ndgrinder59]

I've been struggling lately at the 30/60 and 50/100 LHE games so I decided to take a night off and watch some of the bigger games, when this hand came up.........

PokerStars Game #9722455118: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/05/02 - 22:46:13 (ET)
Table 'Industria IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: AlexSem ($15411 in chips)
Seat 5: tiger76 ($11380 in chips)
Seat 6: DonkofDonks ($5086 in chips)
AlexSem: posts small blind $100
tiger76: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
DonkofDonks: raises $200 to $400
AlexSem: raises $200 to $600
tiger76: folds
DonkofDonks: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [5s 8d 3h]
AlexSem: bets $200
DonkofDonks: calls $200
*** TURN *** [5s 8d 3h] [Jd]
AlexSem: bets $400
DonkofDonks: raises $400 to $800
AlexSem: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [5s 8d 3h Jd] [Ks]
AlexSem: checks
DonkofDonks: bets $400
AlexSem: raises $400 to $800
DonkofDonks: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AlexSem: shows [Kd 9c] (a pair of Kings)
DonkofDonks: mucks hand
AlexSem collected $4998 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5000 | Rake $2
Board [5s 8d 3h Jd Ks]
Seat 3: AlexSem (small blind) showed [Kd 9c] and won ($4998) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: tiger76 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: DonkofDonks (button) mucked


I'm not in any way calling AlexSem out on this hand b/c I know he is a solid winning LHE player, but I am just trying understand the thought process on calling the turn raise...what range did you have your opponent on were you calling river if you didn't spike...ext

[Sailboats]

I would say alot of the way this hand played out would have to be a result of previous hands. It hard to say what he was thinking when just viewing one hand ya know.

[ndgrinder59]

ya, thats why i posted it here b/c i know alex reads this forum and was hoping for a response from him

[The Funky Llama]

seems like a pretty bad call unless Alex has a certain read that tells him that donk's turn raise is highly indicative of a draw

[AndyatSD]

Sure, I'll try to explain his rationale since this seems pretty standard to me. I've played many hands with Alex, but never with DoD, and I don't know what the tableflow (past/recent history) of this table, but I doubt it matters.

It's 3 handed - and DoD raised and called a sb 3 bet - that pretty much leaves his hand range at *anything* right about now (or close to it). If I was Alex, I'd most definitely call turn (that and I'm a calling station) because the turn raise could have been anything from [range of hands of villian]:

1) Pure Bluff of any two cards putting a move
2) Picked up diamond draw from turn.
3) Picked up straight draw of any sort from turn (9T, QT, 69, etc)
4) Delayed bluff of any sort of draw from the flop (24, 26, etc)
5) A pair
6) Something better than a pair. Like two pair, pair+st8 draw, etc.

Given this range, against #6 Alex is drawing slim/dead, against #5 he likely has 3 outs, and against 1-4 he's either already winning or have 6 outs.

It's just not good to fold at the point of the turn raise, and also it's an easy check raise if he hits the river (and no, don't fold to a 3 bet).

Yes, call river on practically anything except maybe 6d, but even then I'd still call (not saying I'm right, just explaining rationale). If part of the rationale of calling turn is the guy may be on the draw, then you better darn call the river if the draw missed.

(or, Alex called cuz HE FELT LIKE IT. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation too).

~andy

[PokerBob]

he has a bad mutha. don't never fold no bad mutha.

[Victor]

pretty much everyone who plays this high is just some overaggro maniac donk who ran hot

[AlexSem]

Andy explained it pretty well.

Without going into too much detail: the chances of Donk having the J are not nearly as high as youd think. So imagine the turn is an indifferent card - do you call the raise?

Do I call that river? It depends, in a lot of cases no I dont because I think he has a pair pretty often, but Id say 35% of the time or so Id call the river with my K high.

Donk was also tilting pretty badly and metagame wise, it was definitely the right decision and the more I think of it, the more I think I should call it down since he raised a lot of turns and I was folding my K and A highs left and right.

[Sickgambler1]

Thanks for the analysis, Alex. I have wondered about great players think processes in short handed LHE,Very interesting indeed.

[fivesense]

pokerbob's explaination is infinelty better than andys