Have I got a bet? How about my PFR?

[DrModern]

I'm at the Foxwoods $2/$4 game, which, in case you don't know, is extremely loose-passive. I open-raise with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG. 4 players call, including BB, the rest fold.

The flop comes 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checks, I bet, 1 dude calls, BB calls, and the rest fold.

Turn is K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] BB checks, I bet, both call.

River is the 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB checks, do I have enough to bet?

[Utah]

Why raise preflop? You would rather see the flop cheaply and get as many people in as possible.

Flop bet is okay.

Turn bet is okay if you are planning on dumping to a raise.

River is a check. You are only going to get called by a hand that beats you - unless they are super bad. There is also a bit of equity in a bluff by a busted straight since the bb and you would both have checked.

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise preflop? You would rather see the flop cheaply and get as many people in as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a substantial equity edge given the usual calling ranges at this game. They're pretty close to ATC.

[ QUOTE ]
River is a check. You are only going to get called by a hand that beats you - unless they are super bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are super bad.

[Xhad]

I wouldn't raise 88 UTG if I expected this many callers. It sets you up to bet every postflop street with the worst hand*, which is probably what ended up happening here. Actually even as played I don't like either postflop bet.

*and often causes you to make less when you flop your set, and can't protect your hand on a low card flop

EDIT:

[ QUOTE ]
I have a substantial equity edge given the usual calling ranges at this game. They're pretty close to ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're actually decreasing your equity edge by allowing people to fold their worst hands. This BTW is completely different than if you are OTB after 4 limpers, in which case a raise can be sweet.

[BigBadBabar]

i'd raise 88 in a tighter game more readily than i would in a loose passive one such as this. any raggedy hands are coming along anyway and unless we hit our set or very favorable boards we don't have all that much of a hand come showdown.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually even as played I don't like either postflop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you ready to give up the hand so easily? In a game like this, the players could have anything. With one check already and with only one overcard to my pair (which isnt an A) I am firing the flop every time. The turn is trickier but you still have to bet it. You are incredibly vulnerable if not already beaten. No way you want to give a free card to an idiot who has a hand like A,9. If you get called on the turn then I think you are done with the hand unless you see a beautiful 8 on the river.

[StrictlyStrategy]

Your equity is far from substantial, because anyone with a card higher than eight:
1.) Won't fold preflop
2.) Won't fold a pair postflop
3.) You need at least 6 callers to make this a "winning" play and it's such a tiny edge, blah. I like raising here at 10-20 or something but at the FW $2 game you're basically just gambling.

I agree with Utah.

The turn is rough but the board is still draw heavy and we're halfway in position.

I'm checking the river for sure, a value bet here is superrrrrrr light, and they might bluff the river when checked too.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually even as played I don't like either postflop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you ready to give up the hand so easily?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it depends on just how passive is passive here. It's been awhile since I played 2/4 B&M every day, but I remember people randomly donking these types of flops a lot. The turn is just the second worst thing possible (after the obvious disaster of an A).

[22pajo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a substantial equity edge given the usual calling ranges at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I raise pre flop for the above reason.
I dont see how limping this hand is an optimal play. But i am willing to be educated

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]

3.) You need at least 6 callers to make this a "winning" play and it's such a tiny edge, blah. I like raising here at 10-20 or something but at the FW $2 game you're basically just gambling.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is fallacious. Them having a card higher than an 8 is relevant to the value of the raise because...?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,774,306 games 8.109 secs 465,446 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.901% 28.43% 00.47% 1073177 17647.03 { 88 }
Hand 1: 17.815% 16.91% 00.90% 638364 34043.53 { random }
Hand 2: 17.750% 16.85% 00.90% 635888 34057.37 { random }
Hand 3: 17.759% 16.86% 00.90% 636381 33905.20 { random }
Hand 4: 17.774% 16.88% 00.90% 636936 33906.87 { random }


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I realize they have slightly better than random hands when they call the PFR, but knowing this game, it's really only slightly. This a substantial equity advantage.

What's your default play here with 99? What about TT? Why are they different?