got called a donk for this play...thanks for stacking off to me.

[knght311]

don't have hand history so forgive my crappy translation...but here are 2 hands tonight where I had JJ...standard?


.50-1 FT NL Holdem 6 max
Hero is UTG and dealt JJ. Hero limps.
Folded around to BB, BB raises 4. Hero raises to 13.

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB Bets out 17, Hero raises to 40. BB Reraises and is all in for 104.00
Hero calls.

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

River is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Final pot 206.00


2nd hand
.50-1
Hero is dealt JJ UTG Hero Limps.
Button raises to 4. BB raises to 13 (the BB is the same guy that I just played HU in the other hand, he has been reraising a button raise about 75% of the time.)
Hero calls, button calls.

Flop is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero checks Button checks.

Turn is a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, Hero Checks, Button bets 25. BB folds, Hero Calls.

Standard? or put in a reraise here?

River is a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets 47.50 and is all in.

Do you like the push? I have him on AK at this point.

[4_2_it]

Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[knght311]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point...my line was that on the river I didn't want to be faced with a tough decision for all my chips...it is not an easy call in that spot, but a very easy push. And by pushing...if he does have something like KK-JQ it makes his decision much harder.

[The White Rabbit]

uh, no?

If he's always calling with anything that beats you, but sometimes shoving worse when checked to, c/c strictly dominates shoving.

[knght311]

[ QUOTE ]
uh, no?

If he's always calling with anything that beats you, but sometimes shoving worse when checked to, c/c strictly dominates shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you gather that he is "always calling with anything that beats me?"

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point...my line was that on the river I didn't want to be faced with a tough decision for all my chips...it is not an easy call in that spot, but a very easy push. And by pushing...if he does have something like KK-JQ it makes his decision much harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

KK is not folding here. You probably get a fold from KQ or QJ, but that's about it. He bets a lot of stuff you bet if you check/call while he rarely folds a better hand and always calls when you are beat.

(I miss pokey, he could run the numbers and show you exactly how +EV a check call is [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] )

[Cue-Ball 66]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point...my line was that on the river I didn't want to be faced with a tough decision for all my chips...it is not an easy call in that spot, but a very easy push. And by pushing...if he does have something like KK-JQ it makes his decision much harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's always calling you there with everything that beats you. If you think he has AK, go with your read and check-call. Pushing is very counter-intuitive.

[knght311]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point...my line was that on the river I didn't want to be faced with a tough decision for all my chips...it is not an easy call in that spot, but a very easy push. And by pushing...if he does have something like KK-JQ it makes his decision much harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's always calling you there with everything that beats you. If you think he has AK, go with your read and check-call. Pushing is very counter-intuitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about a shove on the turn...or a reraise, standard or just simply call here?

[Cue-Ball 66]

I'd never raise the turn for the same reason. He'll call you with his Queens and better and fold anything worse.


P.S. I doubt he's even folding JQ or QK on the river. $75 pot for $47.50 more. Your push just looks weird.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you have him on AK, then why push? He isn't calling. The optimal line would be to check and let him bluff off his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point...my line was that on the river I didn't want to be faced with a tough decision for all my chips...it is not an easy call in that spot, but a very easy push. And by pushing...if he does have something like KK-JQ it makes his decision much harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's always calling you there with everything that beats you. If you think he has AK, go with your read and check-call. Pushing is very counter-intuitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about a shove on the turn...or a reraise, standard or just simply call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

To run a bluff you need to be able to 'convince' a better hand to fold or a draw to make an incorrect call. You can't credibly do either on the turn or river.

Either check folding, calling down or potting the flop are the viable options. You have to make a read to figure out which one is best here.