PLO8 $50: Top two pair on drawy board

[Josh124]

No specific read on the players.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $6.15
UTG+1: $31.10
MP1: $35.10
MP2: $17.35
MP3: $41.40
CO: $50
Button: $23.60
Hero: $49.50
BB: $20

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($5.5, 5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $2.75</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $6.5</font>, 3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($18.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $18.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button calls all-in $16.1</font>.
Uncalled bets: $2.4 returned to Hero.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($50.7, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.7)


Results:
Final pot: $50.7

I didn't want to bet out into such a large field but when everyone checks and villian bets small I think I have the best hand. I decided to raise enough so that I could get it all-in on a safe card (any high non-club or pairing card).

Should I have just bet right out?

Should I check/fold on the flop?

Should I be more cautious on the turn?

[bbartlog]

I would usually lead the flop - top two pair is a good hand, but not something I would angle for a checkraise with; you're behind to a flush draw / low draw combo, so bloating the pot isn't something you should be trying to do.
I certainly wouldn't fold to one bet or raise though. Normally a small bet like this signals either the nut low draw or the nut flush draw trying to see cards for fairly cheap while hoping to get multiple contributors to the pot. I think I would either bet/call or check/call, not c/r.
The turn bet I like. It's fairly unlikely that someone would bet half the pot on the flop with a high wrap type hand, so I think you're ahead here most of the time, and charging drawing hands makes sense.

I would only fold the flop if there were two raises back to me. At that point it's a good bet someone has a set or a monster draw that you're a big dog to.

[neverforgetlol]

Don't lead into the 4 players with top two when there are two low cards out.

[Bad Beat Jason]

I’m no expert, but I have the distinct feeling that you are behind the whole way. One, villain raises from the button pre-flop against a pretty large field. Doesn’t necessarily mean AAww, but you never know. Also, if he is a smart player, he could be raising a hand full of face cards from late position.

On the flop, your shot at winning the low just got tossed out the window. Top two pair is not an easy hand to play. Yours is additionally difficult because of the threat of flush &amp; straight draws. I think a check/fold might be the right line here. You have to consider what cards help you at this point, likely only an Ace, Jack, or non-club nine. Any additional low card could potentially split the pot, any club will probably fill in a flush, and any King, Queen, or Ten could fill in a straight.

The fact that the villain only bet half the pot says to me that he is asking for callers, in which case that is even more bad news. It’s hard to say if the raise hurt you or not. If you are only playing for half the pot, why fold out dead money? But if you don’t raise, they could outdraw you. That’s a Catch 22 if I ever saw one.

I’m not sure why you bet the turn, it was not a great card for you as it could have completed a straight with redraws to a second possible flush.

If the river Jack won you the pot, I’d say you got quite lucky.

[zizazziza]

this is a nice c/f on the flop. there are NO CARDS (other than another A or J) you want to see come on the turn.
Leading doesnt help b/c you dont know where you are if you get multiple callers. What does the person have if only 1 person calls? suffice to say you are going to be getting your money in bad too often to make this profitable to be aggro oop with. You're looking to flop a huge draw or hand or nut low or nld. You flop'd 2pr, a hand that almost never holds up in PLO8. Just fold it, if you're not behind now, you will be behind.

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m no expert, but I have the distinct feeling that you are behind the whole way. One, villain raises from the button pre-flop against a pretty large field. Doesn’t necessarily mean AAww, but you never know.

[/ QUOTE ] Villain almost certainly doesnt have AAxx.
1) That would mean require villain to have the last two aces.
2) Villain made a minraise preflop, a pot sweetener.
3) Villain bet half the pot on the flop on a draw heavy board.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if he is a smart player, he could be raising a hand full of face cards from late position.



[/ QUOTE ] Very few people raise hands full of broadway cards after lots of limpers. Even smart people.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, your shot at winning the low just got tossed out the window. Top two pair is not an easy hand to play. Yours is additionally difficult because of the threat of flush &amp; straight draws. I think a check/fold might be the right line here. You have to consider what cards help you at this point, likely only an Ace, Jack, or non-club nine. Any additional low card could potentially split the pot, any club will probably fill in a flush, and any King, Queen, or Ten could fill in a straight.

[/ QUOTE ] LDO

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the villain only bet half the pot says to me that he is asking for callers, in which case that is even more bad news.

[/ QUOTE ] No, its good news. It means that he doesnt have a made hand, because no made hand would want callers on this board. It means hes on a draw, and given the information we have, we can narrow down the type of draw. One candidate would be a pair of aces and a low/wheel draw, maybe with a flush draw as well.

[ QUOTE ]
It’s hard to say if the raise hurt you or not. If you are only playing for half the pot, why fold out dead money? But if you don’t raise, they could outdraw you. That’s a Catch 22 if I ever saw one.


[/ QUOTE ] Theres only two low cards out, why is hero only playing for half the pot? Heres the thing, if this were LO8 youd be right. But since you can defend a hand in PLO8 hero has to go with his read, and raise here when he thinks that hes ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not sure why you bet the turn, it was not a great card for you as it could have completed a straight with redraws to a second possible flush.

[/ QUOTE ] It WAS a great card. None of villains likely draws came in. If villain managed to minraise on the button and bet half the pot on the flop with a hand that contains KQ, then we chalk that one up to experience and move on. The overwhelming chance is that villain DOESNT have a straight, in which case this is a great place to get the rest in.

[ QUOTE ]
If the river Jack won you the pot, I’d say you got quite lucky.

[/ QUOTE ] yes



OP, in conclusion: I really like the way you played this hand. I dont like betting the flop into that big a field. I dont have the original post in front of me, but I wonder whether you couldnt have exercised even more pot control on the flop, and flat called or minraised in order to set up a situation where you put villain almost all in on the turn. (Point being that if you may have to abandon the pot on the turn if a scare card comes, then the less you can get away with betting on the flop, the better).

[bbartlog]

Agree with Fiasco.
As regards the turn card, I agree that it *would* look bad for us if the flop got checked around and five players saw the turn - but since we got HU with one player whose hand we have a pretty good idea of, we can be quite confident that it is unlikely to help our opponent, and bet out.

[zizazziza]

my problem with the c/r (which i feel if u do wish to continue with the hand is the only way) is that you dont know how many people may tag along. This is plo8$50 and you dont know what people are going to be chasing. If you had a read on the btn about what he is betting here (looks like a draw, then its ok). But my main problem with c/r is the people in the middle and what to do if more than just the btn called since calling $6.5 to win $15-20 isnt that bad odds with a lot of hands.
also, i assume u fold if he 3b here?
i think c/c is a mistake bc it will further induce other players to come along @ the cheap price (since btn only bet 1/2psb)

[Bad Beat Jason]

Just so I am correct, we're advocating that the OP did a good job in getting as much money as he could into the pot with only top two pair and no low, flush, or straight draws to fall back on against a draw heavy board? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I realize he did get to the turn heads-up, so his hand has a better chance of holding up. However, it just doesn't seem like he is getting the right reward for the risk involved when he could fold and wait for a better spot.

Although i don't agree with everything fiasco said above, I can see the point about the ten being a better card than i gave it credit for. But is it so good for OP that he should make a pot-sized bet?

I’m curious as to what kind of hand that you would put the button on that OP dominates? Remember the button actually raised 3/4 the pot preflop, and then bet out half the pot on the flop. He also called the flop raise and the turn bet, so unless he is a total idiot, he’s got to have a strong hand here.

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so I am correct, we're advocating that the OP did a good job in getting as much money as he could into the pot with only top two pair and no low, flush, or straight draws to fall back on against a draw heavy board?

[/ QUOTE ] Yep. Were doing really well against just about any drawing hand. Even this one:
J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.537
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 0.463

[ QUOTE ]
I realize he did get to the turn heads-up, so his hand has a better chance of holding up. However, it just doesn't seem like he is getting the right reward for the risk involved when he could fold and wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ] This is my main concern. If hero has to give up on a bad turn card, and might not be getting it in as a huge favorite on a GOOD turn card, then it kind of sucks if he has to put a lot of money in on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Although i don't agree with everything fiasco said above, I can see the point about the ten being a better card than i gave it credit for. But is it so good for OP that he should make a pot-sized bet?

[/ QUOTE ] Well, if you played the hand to get it heads up on the turn, I dont see how you could do anythign BUT make a PSB on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
I’m curious as to what kind of hand that you would put the button on that OP dominates? Remember the button actually raised 3/4 the pot preflop, and then bet out half the pot on the flop. He also called the flop raise and the turn bet, so unless he is a total idiot, he’s got to have a strong hand here.

[/ QUOTE ] We dont need to be DOMINATING, just beating. But hero is 65% vs A235, 67.5% vs A23K, and 70% against A23T. Not to say that villain has to be on an A23x hand, but those are all hands that will definitely call in this spot that hero is beating pretty well.



OK OP, time to resolve this issue. What did villain have?