Subjectivity and scope with respect to 'self awareness'

[m_the0ry]

I think self-awareness is a pretty ugly suitcase word. That is, we define 'self-awareness' as something that is actually a wide array of concepts that we cluster together. Becuase it's not an isolated concept it cannot be proven or disproven and thus has a divine connotation.

Society, for example, becomes 'self-aware' long after its constituent parts - humans - become self aware. The degree of its self awareness is an infinite continuum, and we can only measure it by written history. Presumptions about societal self-awareness will always be baseless.

The pile of sand argument also attacks self awareness. There exists a pile of sand. I take away one grain of sand. Is it still a pile of sand? I take away another. Is it still a pile of sand? at what point does it become no longer a pile of sand? If I start removing body parts, at what point do they no longer become part of my 'self'? At what point do I cease to be 'self-aware'?

Also, consider the black box argument. If I see the black box that contains me, am I self aware? If the black box uncovers certain parts of me through time, at what point do I become self aware? if I never fully comprehend what is inside of the box can I ever be truly self-aware?

[arahant]

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I think self-awareness is a pretty ugly suitcase word. That is, we define 'self-awareness' as something that is actually a wide array of concepts that we cluster together. Becuase it's not an isolated concept it cannot be proven or disproven and thus has a divine connotation.

Society, for example, becomes 'self-aware' long after its constituent parts - humans - become self aware. The degree of its self awareness is an infinite continuum, and we can only measure it by written history. Presumptions about societal self-awareness will always be baseless.

The pile of sand argument also attacks self awareness. There exists a pile of sand. I take away one grain of sand. Is it still a pile of sand? I take away another. Is it still a pile of sand? at what point does it become no longer a pile of sand? If I start removing body parts, at what point do they no longer become part of my 'self'? At what point do I cease to be 'self-aware'?

Also, consider the black box argument. If I see the black box that contains me, am I self aware? If the black box uncovers certain parts of me through time, at what point do I become self aware? if I never fully comprehend what is inside of the box can I ever be truly self-aware?

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I don't see how society's ever become self aware. I agree there is a bit of a continuum, but I think the observer and observed have to be the same entity, and 'society' isn't an integrated being, no?

Also...yeah, so it's a continuum...and? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[reb]

You are self-aware if you are aware of your self (or existence), and cease to be when you cease to aware of the self...? Why this elaborate overthinking? It has a very simple definition in my book.

[Paragon]

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You are self-aware if you are aware of your self (or existence), and cease to be when you cease to aware of the self...? Why this elaborate overthinking? It has a very simple definition in my book.

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Well, that definition is pretty circular. The problem is how can you test or prove if something is "aware of itself"? Currently, all the rules of thumb do not provide an objective method to measure or label self awareness.

[bunny]

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I think self-awareness is a pretty ugly suitcase word. That is, we define 'self-awareness' as something that is actually a wide array of concepts that we cluster together. Becuase it's not an isolated concept it cannot be proven or disproven and thus has a divine connotation.

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I think the problem with proving or disproving it is due to its subjective nature, not the fact that it is an isolated concept. I feel very comfortable that I know what self-awareness is - yet find it almost impossible to explain (in any non-circular way). I also have no idea what you mean by it, so just assume you mean the same thing I do.

I agree with you that this is similar to "the divine" but I think it is probably true of any subjective concept, rather than from being a wide array of concepts.

[PairTheBoard]

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You are self-aware if you are aware of your self (or existence), and cease to be when you cease to aware of the self...? Why this elaborate overthinking? It has a very simple definition in my book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that definition is pretty circular. The problem is how can you test or prove if something is "aware of itself"? Currently, all the rules of thumb do not provide an objective method to measure or label self awareness.

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I'm satisfied with my method of measuring my own self awareness, which is my own subjective experience. Howver, I don't see how I can ever be quite as satisfied with my objective measures of your self awareness. Thus my recent Thread, "I know I exist but I'm not so sure about you". I'm still puzzling over how people could disagree with that. Seems like a stubborn bias against subjective experience under Any circumstances.

PairTheBoard