rules and etiquette questions

[Johnny McEldoo]

I wanted to ask a could of quick etiquette questions since I'm fairly inexperienced in live play.

Had a guy sitting at my table who was a little bit annoying but fairly decent player at my table the other day. Some of his actions made me wonder what some of the more regular B&M players thought of this. Anyway, here are my questions...

1 - Player would frequently ask the dealer to show a persons mucked cards after showdown... Dealer would always do so... Many players were a little thrown off by this action and the dealer quickly corrected them stating that a player can always request to see the hand once it goes to showdown. In fairness to the guy he did not do this every hand, just on big pots basically where it would really help to understand the guys calling/betting range. I can understand his curiousity. However, this turned into basically every pot where other players wanted to see the mucked hands and left some players thinking this was perfectly fine. Is there any time you feel that since it would really help you get a read on a player that it's OK to demand to see the mucked hand? Also, is there anything you do to try and discourage a player like this to continue his actions?

2 - After facing an all-in bet and the only one left in the hand to act, this same player would turn over his hand and show the other player in the pot before starting to probe him whether his hand was good or not. "Can you beat this?, etc..." I've never seen this play before (I'm new to No Limit thought so that may be why). I was always under the impression that if you turn over your cards before the action was over, then it was a dead hand. I could be completely wrong. Is this a legal play in all card rooms or is this some sort of house rule? What is your feeling on this in terms of etiquitte?

Thanks!!

[Rottersod]

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2 - After facing an all-in bet and the only one left in the hand to act, this same player would turn over his hand and show the other player in the pot before starting to probe him whether his hand was good or not. "Can you beat this?, etc..." I've never seen this play before (I'm new to No Limit thought so that may be why). I was always under the impression that if you turn over your cards before the action was over, then it was a dead hand. I could be completely wrong. Is this a legal play in all card rooms or is this some sort of house rule? What is your feeling on this in terms of etiquitte?

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Hand isn't dead even in most tourneys, where all it will get you is a penalty. I would hope and pray that my opp always showed me his hand when I had big all in call decisions to make.

[bav]

Both of these are gonna depend on the particular room. I Want To See That Hand is an FAQ. Some rooms allow it at any time, for any reason, and if that's the case you just have to accept it. Other casinos (Wynn, for instance) will not allow you to see someone else's mucked hand at showdown unless you make a case to the floor as to why you think they're cheating. Other rooms allow a specific player to IWTSTH a time or two and then clamp down (with rule wording something like "IWTSTH is a privilege that must not be abused", or some such).

As for exposing cards, again depends on the room, but as Rot says well-run rooms never kill hands just because they are exposed. But such rooms DO exist, so don't try this in a strange poker room if you don't know the rule.

[MasterLJ]

1. Very standard. You have the right to see a player's hand. In fact, at most B&M's you can ask to see a player's hand even if you weren't in the hand (but you were dealt cards).
2. You can also do this at most B&M's. I wouldn't until you were absolutely sure this is legal. In some rare cases your hand can be called dead by the another player.

[albedoa]

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1. Very standard.


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This is far from "very standard".

[ne14dirt]

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1. Very standard.


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This is far from "very standard".

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How is it not standard??? At showdown any player that was dealt a hand can request to see the losing player’s hole cards. I’ve played in at least a 100 card rooms and have never know that not to be a rule.

As far as showing you opponent your hole cards to get a read, that might be a small breach of etiquette depending on the make up of the table but is perfectly permissible. In a live tournament you hand is considered dead if it is exposed, not a cash game.

Look no further than High Stakes Poker on GSN. Brian Townsend exposes his hand to try and get a read on Paul Wasicka.

[SpleenLSD]

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Other casinos (Wynn, for instance) will not allow you to see someone else's mucked hand at showdown unless you make a case to the floor as to why you think they're cheating.

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I wish more poker rooms had the same attitude. Showing a mucked hand is a privledge allowed with the intent of fighting collusion and cheating. If a player asks to see my hand more than once in a session I will ask them directly why they think I'm cheating.

[albedoa]

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1. Very standard.


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This is far from "very standard".

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How is it not standard??? At showdown any player that was dealt a hand can request to see the losing player’s hole cards. I’ve played in at least a 100 card rooms and have never know that not to be a rule.

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I didn't say it isn't a rule. I meant it's not standard, and especially not "very standard", for someone to constantly abuse the privilege and not be complained about by other players or spoken to by the floor.

"5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused."

Tell me how situation one in the OP is "very standard". Is this part of the rules ignored in the 100+ card rooms you've been to?

[ne14dirt]

The vast majority of people don’t think you are cheating but would like to get a good long hard look at what two cards you deem showdown worthy., what cards you play in what position, if you raised, flat called or checked.

I take and use any information that I can get. You can extract a ton of info during showdown and it’s within the rules to do so.

[findingneema]

I would tell them, "The rule exists not to satisfy your curiousity about my play, but to ascertain if I'm cheating. Do you think I'm cheating?"