More guns the way to go? Some thoughs.

[karlwig]

The Virginia Tech massacre was horrible, and my thoughts and best wishes goes to all of those affected. But, and it's sad to say it this way: It is the price to pay for a society where everyone "needs" a gun.

What surprises me most is the "solutions" many seem to have after a massacre like this. I've scrolled through some of the gun-debates on this forum, and opinions like "If the students had guns, they could have taken out the killer" and "more guns makes a safer community" seems to be shared by many users.

I live in Norway in Europe. We have a very strict gun law. Even the police aren't allowed to carry guns. Some of you might now think "wow, that's stupid". Actually it's not. When the police don't use guns, criminals doesn't need to either. The result is that people doesn't get killed in stealing/robbing related cases. And if the criminal does have a gun? Well, then he doesn't feel the pressure of using it, cause nobody else is a treat. I think this is a good thing. Yes, so a criminal might get more easily away. But isn't that a better outcome than either the criminal and/or the victim getting killed because both were armed? Or someone getting killed by the police while stealing a handbag?

If I turn into some mental nut, I think the chanses are good I could get a gun in the US. I could buy one legally. I could get one from my family. Or, I could buy one from a friend or steal one. In Norway, I don't know how to start. Not even after 20 years of living here.

Many Americans seem to use the argument "but the criminals would get guns no matter what, so we might aswell allow it".

what a stupid thing to say. the harder it is to get a gun, the less likely it is that someone would get one.

and of course, if guns aren't allowed, a criminal wouldn't need a gun as much as if everybody else had it. you don't need that "edge" anymore. when everybody else have guns, say in the us, of course criminals must use guns. and it becomes a bad circle, and people get shot in the confrontations.

I think it's strange so many people doesn't agree that more guns means more gun-related violence.

Especially since almost all western industrial countries but the US has stricter gun laws AND less murder rates. I think it's pretty obvious. It's like what more proof do you need? Just look to whatever country you want that has a good, strict gun-control.

I can understand many peoples argument about being able do "defend themself", and therfore having guns. But the thing is, if guns are illegal, you don't have to.

Last year New York City had about 560 homicides. NYC has about 8 million people. Let's compare it to Norway. We have about 4 million people, so we can't compare directly. But if we take Norways number, which is about 20-30 a year, times to, we can compare the numbers. It's about 10 to 1. Sure I could compare it to Texas or California. Frankly, I don't think it would make much a difference.
Or, we could compare the US to another Scandinavian country or west european with strict gun laws. I believe the result is still alot lower than in the US.

The point is, the murder rates could be so much lower if guns were restricted.

I welcome other thoughts at this, and I respect people having other opinions. I know alot of people disagree with me, I just wanted to get it off my chest.

Thanks for reading.

[rubbrband]

Guns will never be banned in the US for a very long time if ever so this is a moot point.

[mosdef]

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Guns will never be banned in the US for a very long time if ever so this is a moot point.

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That's a terrible thing to say. In the late 18th century would you have said "slavery will never be banned in the US for a very long time if ever so this is a moot point"? The only way that humanity has any chance of evolving is to challenge the status quo and promote change.

[rubbrband]

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Guns will never be banned in the US for a very long time if ever so this is a moot point.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a terrible thing to say. In the late 18th century would you have said "slavery will never be banned in the US for a very long time if ever so this is a moot point"? The only way that humanity has any chance of evolving is to challenge the status quo and promote change.

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Really isn't fair to compare gun control to slavery. I seriously doubt guns will be banned in the US in our lifetime.

[mosdef]

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Really isn't fair to compare gun control to slavery. I seriously doubt guns will be banned in the US in our lifetime.

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Why is it not fair? If we think that some commonly accepted current practice is bad, we should encourage people to stop. Whether we think it's likely to work or not, the only way things get better is by someone saying "this can be better" and getting other people to go along.

[rubbrband]

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Why is it not fair?

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Human rights violations aren't comparable to prohibition. Slavery takes every right away from a person. Gun control would be taking away a right granted to citizens by the US constitution. Your assumption that taking guns away from the people is socially progressive is the problem in your logic.

[mosdef]

Well, the counter arguments to your points are in many other emails, so I don't want to start another long thread of arguments and counter arguments. But here's a summary of my point of view and I'll leave it at that.

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what a stupid thing to say. the harder it is to get a gun, the less likely it is that someone would get one.

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That's not really true. The market for guns exists, whether you ban them or not. When you ban them, it just pushes the demand to a black market instead of a recognized market. Activity in black markets promotes violence because when the market is "unofficial" in society's eyes then the only recourse for dissatisfied consumers in that market is violence. When you force people to participate in a black market it encourages violence, including gun use.

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and of course, if guns aren't allowed, a criminal wouldn't need a gun as much as if everybody else had it. you don't need that "edge" anymore. when everybody else have guns, say in the us, of course criminals must use guns.

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It is a huge mistake to think that demand for a product or service will go away if the product is deemed illegal by the government. This is simply not the case and the existence of black markets far and wide in the world is evidence of that.

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Especially since almost all western industrial countries but the US has stricter gun laws AND less murder rates. I think it's pretty obvious. It's like what more proof do you need?

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How about proof of causation instead of just correlation? You should consider the possibility that Norway's more progressive taxation system, for example, reduces the demand for guns rather than the ban on the guns.

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I can understand many peoples argument about being able do "defend themself", and therfore having guns. But the thing is, if guns are illegal, you don't have to.

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That would be true if your ban on guns was sufficient to ensure that no criminals would buy the guns. But as I've noted, a government ban will not eliminate demand.

I agree that less demand for guns would be good. I don't agree that a government ban would eliminate the demand.

[pvn]

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The Virginia Tech massacre was horrible, and my thoughts and best wishes goes to all of those affected. But, and it's sad to say it this way: It is the price to pay for a society where everyone "needs" a gun.

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Only one person involved had a gun.

Thanks for reading.

[LBK]

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[ QUOTE ]
The Virginia Tech massacre was horrible, and my thoughts and best wishes goes to all of those affected. But, and it's sad to say it this way: It is the price to pay for a society where everyone "needs" a gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only one person involved had a gun.

Thanks for reading.

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Right, and if he had no way of getting to a gun it would have been tough for him to kill 31 people the way he did.

Guns are bad, mkay? It's not tough to understand. Sure, people kill people, but its a hell of a lot tougher to kill someone with a rudimentary weapon such as a knife. At least then you can run.

[pvn]

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Guns are bad, mkay? It's not tough to understand.

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So why hasn't the government gotten rid of its guns yet?