Start 3/6 - AJs in BB from hand swap

swong4444 · #1 04-16-2007, 02:38 PM

This is a hand played by my swap partner. I don't think I provided him w/ useful input, and wanted to know what the you guys think.

Villain in this hand has TAGish stats (some are from my PT). For the purpose of this hand, let's just say villain is most likely TAG (30/20/2).

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

I "think" hero's plan was to smooth call preflop and check/raise a lot of flops. I can't speak for him, but that's my guess... I'm sure most of you would take the standard line of 3-bet preflop and bet/call flop.

All streets up for debate, but mostly interested in what you all think about the turn + river? Thanks!

Oh, and my (lame) review comments:
Preflop: I 3bet preflop a lot with this hand. With AK, I am more likely to call preflop and check/raise most flops.
Turn: I am torn between check/calling and check/raising here. I think I like check/raising, but I’m not sure.
River: After not check/raising the turn, I really want to check/raise the river. Wow, interesting hand, I’m going to have to think about this some more.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #2 04-16-2007, 03:09 PM

Im ok with calling preflop with a big ace. The turn and river in this hand are definitely close/debatable. But one thing is not debatable to me. That flop check/raise sux.

Oink · #3 04-16-2007, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That flop check/raise sux.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain?

ILOVEPOKER929 · #4 04-16-2007, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That flop check/raise sux.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

The hero's check/raise is never folding a better hand on this board and the villain will most likely fire the flop and turn with many lesser hands if the hero plays passively and just check/calls this flop and thats exactly what we want to happen. Plus on this particular board, ther hero's flop check/raise will get 3bet by a lesser hand often enough to make it almost impossible to play the later streets optimally. So basically the hero's flop check/raise just sets himself up to get pwned.

rdh009 · #5 04-16-2007, 03:40 PM

I see a lot of places where hero could have released the hand with minimal criticism. C/F after that flop came. The raise on the flop is an interesting play...I wouldn't make it. Call the three bet, C/R the turn, release if 3-bet again. Otherwise, fire again on river if villan calls your C/R. This is a pretty marginal flop/turn for hero to lose 4.5 BBs.

Edit: Rethinking, I would have probably check called the flop, then bet the turn. that is pretty passive, but again, its a dangerous board.

captain_swing · #6 04-16-2007, 03:45 PM

From the turn I think I prefer c/c, then b/c on the river (with or without improving beyond our top pair).

I'm not sure about the turn but the river villain is going to check worse hands a lot (a lot of tens, PPs, straight draws that paired the jack). For this reason, I don't like c/c or c/r.

jstill · #7 04-16-2007, 04:16 PM

I think we should probably donk the turn even as played, people 3bet tons of draws, non trip hands and often dont bet them or just bet fold once the ace hits, ur donk gets lite call downs quite a bit and avoids giving up the freecard to worse hands (if i just ck called the flop id cr the turn here I think pfr when just ck called on raggy boards fire the overcard turns quite a bit UI esp the A).

id never cr the flop here, if i didnt 3bet preflop which i pretty much never do, id ck call the flop and a blank turn, after that is up for debate.

zinna · #8 04-16-2007, 06:03 PM

Im the swap partner in this hand. My plan was to c/r almost any flop and then fire turn. I think the best line as played is c/c turn and c/r river when we improve otherwise c/c river

jstill · #9 04-16-2007, 07:02 PM

fwiw i think ur preflop/flop plan is pretty bad and will not yield positive/ improved results vs either 3betting and going from there or even calling preflop then ck calling almost all rag flops UI and only ck raising when u pair up (that includes not check-raising fds on rag flops).

I generally dont like softplaying these kinds of hand preflop, theres so much value. But if u do, check-raising many rag or even otherwise flops will kill ur winrates with these hands really really fast.

I think the turns a tough spot as played, i really dont like ck call ck call tho for whatever reason. As for check-raising this river I think if his range is so strong after his flop 3bet that we shouldnt donk, or check-raise the turn, check-raising the river will probably not be a more EV line than ck call as weve only really outdrawn a few hands that would 3bet the flop and bet the turn and river: AhQh AhKh and AT (11 combos) sometimes people 3bet the flop with AQ or AK hi no draw, so those are in there too but to be better than ck call (since bluffs fold to the cr anyways) we need to be getting an extra bet 50% as often as we are putting in 3 so... i duno.

mjkidd · #10 04-16-2007, 07:19 PM

I'm OK with just calling with AJs in the BB, but CR that flop is no good. Just check and call, I think. Donk or CR the turn, depending on how aggressive this guy is (Donk if he'll give up, CR if he'll bet a lot of hands). I think he needs a specific reason to only call in the BB preflop; his default play should be to 3-bet, obv.

As played, I think that the turn and river are OK, if he has a lot of respect for this guy's flop 3-bet. If he 3-bets light, I think that a river donk is in order.