A small pocket pair in 6-max

[DrModern]

You're OTB in a mostly loose-aggro 6-max game with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG folds, MP open-limps like a champ, CO folds, and you decide to <font color="red">raise</font> for isolation.

Regrettably, the SB calls, and the BB, a tricky player, now <font color="red">3-bets</font>. MP decides to come along, and you and the SB call as well.

4 of you take a flop of 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with 12 SB in the pot. It's checked to you and you bet. SB calls and BB <font color="red">check-raises</font>. MP mucks, you now do what? Why? What's your plan on what different turn cards?

[fretelöo]

Seeing that you're most likely drawing to two outs, I muck. BB has 99 or better the majority of the time, imho.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
You're OTB in a mostly loose-aggro 6-max game with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG folds, MP open-limps like a champ, CO folds, and you decide to <font color="red">raise</font> for isolation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
4 of you take a flop of 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with 12 SB in the pot. It's checked to you and you bet. SB calls and BB <font color="red">check-raises</font>. MP mucks, you now do what? Why? What's your plan on what different turn cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

I peel here. If it's not broadway on the turn, I peel another, folding if SB gives any action. On the river, if it's it broadway, I think for a while. Otherwise, I call and find out whether he check-raised the flop as a trap or check-raised the flop as a bluff.

[kerowo]

How tricky? What have you been doing so far at the table? If you've been consistently folding to aggression on raggy boards I'd probably look him up. If you have been calling down with any part of the board it's probably a fold.

[marchron]

Wow. I have no idea, but I'm not folding yet, as our call will basically close the action, since I doubt SB will call/3-bet.

Thinking about it some more, I'm folding to any turn paint. I suspect BB is getting really fancy with an overpair, maybe 99-ish, but even if he has high cards UI we're still going to be putting two bets in T+R, and I think SB actually does have high cards. I'll GTSD if the turn is any card 5 through 10 inclusive. I'm also peeling one more if the turn is an A, since we should have enough to look at a wheel draw.

[DrModern]

Aaron,

You're probably right about preflop but the flop decision is interesting regardless. What's the smallest PP you'd raise here?

Fretski,

Are you always drawing to 2 outs here? Mightn't the "tricky" BB see this as an opportune flop to c-r with AK or AQ for deception? Remember, this is a LAG-y 6-max game. Does this percentage in combination with the equity that you have for your 2 outs mean you should continue with the hand? Do you have enough implied odds to try for your set if you assume you are behind?

Kerowo,

I made the hand up, but I'm generally not the type to call down with any part of the board. Neither do I always fold to aggression on raggy boards. I generally play a fairly TAG-ish 6-max game, like 24/15 or so, if that helps. Assume "tricky" means he likes to make tricky plays for their own sake.

All,

Might 3-betting the flop not be best so as to get a free card on the turn and thereby realize a greater percentage of your suck-out equity against a higher PP? Presumably he'll bet the river with 99+ after you check the turn behind when an innocuous 4 falls. He might even call a raise in this large pot.

[kerowo]

What I was getting at is that your image at the table will influence the tricky player. If he is putting you on a naked A, iso or steal attempt and knows you are playing tight he is more likely to be taking a stab here with overcards. I know I'm more likely to try this on tight players who can find a fold than I am on players who can't. I didn't mean to suggest you were a calling station.

[fretelöo]

DrM, yes, of course he might, but combining the times he does that with AQ, AK (and thus has 6 outs twice against you) with the times you're virtually drawing dead already doesn't seem a good spot for me for investing 2.5BB more to find out if I'm good.

The thing is that I'd actually welcome a Q, K or A on the turn. Let's say turn brings an 8 or something. BB bets again. If everyone just called the flop, you'll certainly not donk the turn, will you? So, most likely it'll be checked to him and he, assuming that you have AQ or AK or whatever, will probably bet again. Now what do you do? That 8 certainly didn't help anyone... So you're still either ahead, or way behind.

There are two cards in the deck that make everything easy, a number of cards (Q+) that also clear things up and a whole load of cards that leave you just as much in the dark now as then.

No, I just don't want it.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Aaron,

You're probably right about preflop but the flop decision is interesting regardless. What's the smallest PP you'd raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably 77. I don't want to be flopping 3 overcards most of the time, so I'll take something half-way up.

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Might 3-betting the flop not be best so as to get a free card on the turn and thereby realize a greater percentage of your suck-out equity against a higher PP? Presumably he'll bet the river with 99+ after you check the turn behind when an innocuous 4 falls. He might even call a raise in this large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 2-outer goes from 5% up to 10% when you get two draws. It's not a strong enough draw to want a free card. Plus, you may be giving a free card to an aggro AK if you 3-bet and check behind. I'd rather play slowly against an aggressive/tricky player.

[fretelöo]

3,214,680 games 0.109 secs 29,492,477 games/sec

Board: 5c 5s 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
We: 25.025% 24.99% 00.04% 803278 1184.00 { 4c4s }
SB 23.737% 23.67% 00.06% 760977 2078.00 { 88-66, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s }
BB: 51.239% 51.17% 00.06% 1645085 2078.00 { 99+, AJs+, AQo+ }


I have no idea how reasonable my ranges are, but the ones I dreamed up illustrate my point.

And things only improve slightly ("slightly" in the sense that if we had an edge to begin with, it just doesn't really get better if you broaden their ranges) if you give them pretty broad ranges. Seems like the perfect spot to lose a big pot and win a small one.

Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
We: 36.258% 36.19% 00.07% 5952052 10708.00 { 4c4s }
SB: 26.735% 26.19% 00.55% 4306846 89896.00 { 88-66, KJs-K6s, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s }
BB: 37.007% 36.46% 00.55% 5996038 89896.00 { 55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }