$24 - Suited Connector

[willwonka]

This is a hand that has had much discussion.. mostly on my preflop call... This is very early... 22nd hand... in a deep stack FTP game. Villian is known player that is a good player but my read is that he will make some moves.. (This is a weekly blogger game where most people know most people).

My question is how bad is the preflop call? My contention is that with the chip stack and implied odds, it justfies a call. Does anybody just fold this preflop before the raise... I can see raising with it.. but maybe not this early.


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $20/$40
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $4564
UTG+1: $2680
Hero: $2775
MP2: $3070
CO: $2510
Button: $2675
SB: $2696
BB: $3030

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $240</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($540, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $540</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1440</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises all-in $2270</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($5080, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $5080)


River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5080, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $5080)


Results:
Final pot: $5080

Villian admits to bad play postflop; but said that there was no way that he would put me on JTs as nobody would call with the "junk" to a preflop raise Heads UP and out of position.

[rafiki]

I hate limping with that hand. I would much rather raise it then call a raise with it OOP.

[willwonka]

I understand that some people hate it.. but why?

My thinking was that it was very early in double stack tourney so I wanted to see a cheap flop with this hand. And while I wasn't thrilled about calling a raise... it didn't really hurt me if I called and didn't hit.

Yes, there was the potential that I could be dominated... but isn't worth taking flyers while the blinds are low? even if OOP?

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
And while I wasn't thrilled about calling a raise... it didn't really hurt me if I called and didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, it would've cost you almost 10% of your stack to play, and more if you flopped top pair and spent some chips figuring out it was no good. That's a pretty hefty re-raise to be calling OOP with a speculative hand against one player. Both of these factors mean you'll be able to extract less on average when you hit.

It certainly isn't a "junk hand", but I'd probably fold.

[aplunk]

i open-raise. i might open-fold sometimes but i'd never open limp in a 'normal' situation like this.

that's standard isn't it?

open-raise &gt;&gt; open-limp

after he's raised u've got a tough decision. i think i call, then realise it was a mistake when i miss the flop. obviously u don't have that problem.

u can avoid this tricky decision by open-raising

if stax were much deeper u can make a better argument for open-limping, because you know u can afford to call a raise.

[Jake M.]

I thought you said it was a Ring Game, not a tourney (you just posted now that it was a tourney) Im lost. Either way, I do not like this play. First off, you limped in. With a hand like J10 suited, I would open raise 4-6x BB. From there if you get re raised then you can dump. But lets look at how you did play the hand. You limped, then you called his $240 raise out of posistion. Being out of posistion is not really that ideal. Secondly, you did not even have 100x the BB, which in my eyes makes this a short stacked game now. If you had $4000+, then you may be able to justify your play. My general rule of thumb is that I call raises with small pocket pairs hoping to flop a set if i can make 10x the inital raise ($240x10 so $2400 or so) and for suited connectors, this goes all the way up to 15x-20x ($3600-$4800 in front of you). So I feel that you will not be able to make a profit in the long run calling his $240 raise out of posistion. Remember, don't be result oriented, think of the long term.

[aplunk]

i use the same numbers - don't call with small pp's if its more than 10% of your stack - nor with suited connectors if it's more than 5%.

yr slightly better than 1 in 10 to overtake AA on the flop if you have 44, and slightly better than 1 in 20 if u have J10s

[willwonka]

Jake... This was definitely a Tourney... I did same ftp game; but really meant ftp deep stack tourney..

I appreciate all of the comments and will defintely think twice about open limping with JTs.

My only thoughts were that it was very ealry in the tourney and blinds were still low and with JTs, I was trying to get a flop multi-handed.

As played... calling a raise OOP was definitley gambling. I'm not sure I would change what I did; but I will definitley think about it more next time.

To me, 63BB is still plenty to work with early in a tourney.

[Cleverbeans]

If you want to open limp hands like JTs you're going to have to make these calls OOP some of the time of others will just run you over when they see you limp. Your hand is well disguised, and easy to let go if you don't hit hard. I'd say that your play was fine - assuming it as a means of varying your play.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, 63BB is still plenty to work with early in a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ] It is not a matter of how much you have left "to work with"- it's whether calling is a winning play or a losing play.

For instance, let's take a lowly pocket 22. You are in EP and have a stack of 5,000 chips with blinds of 25 and 50 so you limp in. Everyone folds to the button, who has a stack size of 1200 chips and puts in a raise to 250. He accidentally flashes his cards while he does so and you see that he has "AA". If you call, you will have 4,750 chips "to work with" if you decide to "gambol". According to your logic you should call to try and flop your set, but this would be a losing play. If you make it time and time again in the same situation, it will cost you money. The reason? The times you hit will never payoff enough, even though you will get his whole stack.

You will flop a set (or better) 1 in 7.5 times. So one time in 7.5 you will get a pay off of 1325 (his stack, plus your initial limp, plus the blinds) while 7.5 times you will lose 200 (since you will not flop a set and must now fold to his better hand). This will total a loss of 1500 chips over the 7.5 trials, so calling in this spot will cost you an average of 175 chips per call. You might not think that's a lot, but it adds up. Poker tournaments are one or lost based on calls and folds like these.

Winning poker is about taking the good "gambles" and passing up the bad ones. The example I gave is a clearly bad gamble that indicates a leak if you are willing to take it (however small you might think it is).

Now your real situation is a bit more complex than this because you don't know what your opponent has. We can flop big and not make any money, or we can flop decent and still be behind. This ambiguity makes it more difficult, not easier, to call. That you are OOP is even worse. So the question comes down to: will you make enough money when you do well with this hand in this position to make up for the majority of the time you'll do poorly? Those who cite having 15 and 20 times the raise are thinking about exactly this, and they are saying "no, you don't." You might believe they are wrong. IF so, fine- show your work and explain how you can make up the losses when you hit. Arguing that you'll have plenty of chips left is not a good argument, however, because it's not about how many chips left in your stack. It's about the hands potential vs. what it will cost you to play.