On B&M and the strategy forums

[Paul Levy]

Our beloved Mod is exorting us to spend less time in here and more on the strategy forums. A couple of considerations:

- I learnt many good things from the strategy forums, however they can sometimes be rather hostile environments, where questions are often greeted with aggressive and annoying sarcasm. B&M, instead, is essentially free from obnoxious arrogant teenagers.

- Online, 6-max is all the rage, while live you play full ring quite more often than short-handed (at least in my experience). When I read about SBrugby betting 10k preflop with 3 8 offsuit and Antonius pushing with a pair of deuces I take my hat off to both, but I truly can't care less, 'cos that's not a style or a kind of game I'll ever feel like playing.

There now is a Full Ring forum, which however is dominated by discussions of hands that occur at super-micro limits, which might not be that relevant for the live games we're interested in.

- Live and online players are rather different bunches, with only a limited overlap between the two groups. Live games are typically much looser and bets have bizarre sizes, you regularly see people opening for 10xBB live, you hardly ever see it online. This is to say that the typical live fish is a beast of its own, and cannot quite be compared to a bad/low-stakes online player.

- Some live game structures just do not exist online, for instance in live games you get the chance to play super deep. Or when I started playing the crazy PLHE game at the Vic I had trouble adjusting, and I posted twice lengthy questions that nobody could, or cared to, answer. If a new player posts there with my same questions today he still gets no answer, if he posts here I'll now be able to give him thorough accounts on any detail.
Another example, at the Palm Beach (still in London) they have tournaments with a ludicrous structure: 3 tables, starting 11-handed, with blinds that double every round with no antes. You won't be able to find any enlightenment on any tournament forum (I tried) but someone who played it will be able to give good advice.

Just my two cents.

[LasVegasMichael]

Until there are separate online and live strat forums, I will not set foot in them. Period.

[jkamowitz]

[ QUOTE ]
Until there are separate online and live strat forums, I will not set foot in them. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I've always felt the same way. Online players give live players poor advice and vice versa.

[crashjr]

I don't even read the strat forums at 2+2 since the Felicia Lee wintermute conflagration in the PLO8 strat forum. I post and give strat advice at another forum where the signal to noise ratio is far better than at 2+2 (due in large in part to the aforementioned arrogant teenagers). I like this forum the way it is.

[Dima2000123]

Thirded. Whenever I played a very interesting 1/2 NL hand that I want to discuss, I always feel like I would get a better and more useful discussion in B&M forum, even though it's not an actual strategy forum. I really hate the "Hate pre-flop, bet more" types of one liners that in my experience make up 80% of the posts in strategy forums.

[Rottersod]

I play live to make some extra cash and to compete. I enjoy the competition aspect of poker quite a bit. I play pretty well and do OK at the limits that I want to play. I have no interest in building my bankroll so that I can keep moving up all the time. I do move up to bigger and better games but at my pace and not dependent on anything else.

I find that the strategy forums are geared to online players who can post hand histories and give all the relevant details like chip stacks, etc. By the time I leave a casino, go to sleep and finally go online here there's almost no way I'm going to remember all those details,

I agree 100% with the posters who wrote that it would be better if we had a live play stratagy forum since there are online players who see thousands of hands per week and have probably played more overall hands in 1 year than I've played live in my entire life.

Every now and then I read these forums, especially the mid staked NL but I get bogged down really quickly with the micro advice these players seek. When to raise KK when the flop is xxx and heres what UTG, MP, CO, SB have, etc, etc. By the time I'm done reading it I have 7 different answers and I just say the hell with it.

I post in B&M because I like to read about experiences that other people have in the same casinos that I play in or I have some advice for others who play there. I enjoy reading about other casinos. I like to read particular people's posts because over time I feel like I've come to know them even though we've never met. Shag and AngusT play at the same places I do. So does Rick. Bav plays in Vegas and I like his style of writing.

I see B&M as more of a social forum. And that's the way I like it.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
- I learnt many good things from the strategy forums, however they can sometimes be rather hostile environments, where questions are often greeted with aggressive and annoying sarcasm. B&M, instead, is essentially free from obnoxious arrogant teenagers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Do I really want to get advice from some 19 YO telling me that I'm an idiot for not pushing with my 2.5% edge. He's multi tabling 6 games and playing thousands of hands. I'm playing with nits who complain when the table goes down to 6 handed.

[KurtSF]

I want to encourage everyone to give the "Full Ring" forum a shot for B&M strat posts.

(1) Yes, there is a lot of micro-limit posts in there too, but there are also many talented players who are regulars in that forum who play much higher. Folks who give advice will preface it will what level they are used to if they are a micros player, so you can take it or leave it as you like. The core regulars are largely 200NL players and quite solid, and there are many who play higher.

(2) B&M hands are welcomed there. You will get a thorough analysis of the hand, as much as anywhere on 2+2, and for the most part no "go all in" or "move up to where they respect your raises" comments will be made. Do a search for +live -re: in that forum to get a feel for the level of discussion.

(3) I think the idea is to see how big "Full Ring" can get before they split it up. The split might be high-stakes vs. low-stakes, or online vs. live. If B&M hands aren't posted there so that a need for a B&M strat forum grows, then B&M will never get its own strat forum.

(4) I personally find that the Full Ring forum has much more of a community feel to it than the other strat forums. There isn't the uber-emphasis on "post a hand" that you find, for example, in SSNL. There are regularly discussions on "how do you adjust to X" or other general discussion-type threads. The environment is, IMHO, conducive to to tailoring to what you want.

In short, I would recommend posting there because (a) its welcomed, (b) you'll get good feedback, (c) if a few folks start posting B&M hands its likely a quorum or critical mass of B&M posters will congregate there to talk strat and make it what you want, even if it isn't already.

$0.02

[pismeyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I see B&M as more of a social forum. And that's the way I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very well said.

I lurked around the Full Ring forum, and could only pick a few B&M type posts. All others were online play, I quit on-line play for the simple fact of liking the B&M feel alot better. Actually talking and looking at other players while having conversations (or arguments) is alot better than typing "LOL". I have no comments or any insight into the game on-line players play.

P [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[KurtSF]

OK, continuing to pimp the Full Ring forum, here's some of the recent discussions around live play:

Playing a draw

Playing a maniac

Playing a set on a drawy board

General discussion of loose live tables

General discussion of a crazy home game

Playing a pair and a flush draw

Playing a combo-draw

All in the last two weeks.