$20 TT UTG field of limpers followed by a raise from the blinds

[holdem17]

Only read on villain is that he has been limping a lot of mediocre hands and has been playing poorly but getting lucky.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t30/t60
9 players
Converter


Stack sizes:
Hero: t1585
UTG+1: t1620
MP1: t965
MP2: t1270
MP3: t1530
CO: t1300
Button: t1180
SB: t2355
BB: t1695


Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG with Ts Th
Hero calls t60 (pot was t90), 2 folds, MP2 calls t60 (pot was t150), MP3 folds, CO calls t60 (pot was t210), Button calls t60 (pot was t270), SB raises to t420, BB folds, Hero raises all-in t1585

What do you think of this shove?

[mmorpg]

I prefer folding

[Collin Moshman]

Hi holdem17,

First, I would normally raise to 180 or so pre-flop, although limping is certainly not unreasonable.

Second, I think a passive player making a large raise from the small blind usually indicates genuine strength. Plus he may consider his raise pot-committing even if he has a weaker holding. Therefore you will not have much fold equity when you shove.

So the majority of the time you will be going to showdown for all your chips with only 240 in dead money to pad the pot. And my guess is that averaging out Villain's possible holdings, you will be even money or a bit worse in the long run. (Speaking from a cEV perspective.)

So I would suggest declining to play this hand so early in the SNG.

Best Regards,
Collin

[CheeseMoney]

I am assuming by declining to play this hand, you mean fold to the big raise? Or are you saying that he limp/fold to the raise.

FWIW, I probably limp/fold or make a 2.5BB pfr and fold to his push if he does so.

[BeattysLuck]

I dont mind limping here. Id fold to SB raise though.

[morny]

Limping is bad UTG you have a strong hand, now SB is making a standard 3x raise +1 per limper, Your probably racing here and its not always a good idea to get into a race so early but i dont think this raise is neccessarily of great strength.

Hes going to be getting good odds to call so as someone said you dont have much folding equity but if you raised preflop and someone came over the top then you can narrow their range but with so many limpers the SB could be making a standard raise and trying to steal blind or he could have a monster.

So i can find a fold here because you dont know where you stand and theres still 3 to act but a standard 3-4x raise would have been better and the only time im limping under the gun is if i have AA or KK and i know theres an aggressive player acting after me, i can then RR him when he does. Otherwise never limp UTG and especially not with TT

[JMills109]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping is bad UTG you have a strong hand, now SB is making a standard 3x raise +1 per limper, Your probably racing here and its not always a good idea to get into a race so early but i dont think this raise is neccessarily of great strength.

Hes going to be getting good odds to call so as someone said you dont have much folding equity but if you raised preflop and someone came over the top then you can narrow their range but with so many limpers the SB could be making a standard raise and trying to steal blind or he could have a monster.

So i can find a fold here because you dont know where you stand and theres still 3 to act but a standard 3-4x raise would have been better and the only time im limping under the gun is if i have AA or KK and i know theres an aggressive player acting after me, i can then RR him when he does. Otherwise never limp UTG and especially not with TT

[/ QUOTE ]


Not sure what all the gripe is about, but Limping TT for ~4% of your stack is completely fine.


As played, fold.

[whangarei]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping is bad UTG you have a strong hand, now SB is making a standard 3x raise +1 per limper, Your probably racing here and its not always a good idea to get into a race so early but i dont think this raise is neccessarily of great strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree with everything here. Limping UTG this early w/ TT is good IMO. I play this cautious early and am hoping to flop a set or win with a cheap bet on the flop.

How is a raise to 420, with starting stacks of 1500, standard? More often than not I think this will be a pair higher than TT, or at least AK. Easy fold IMO.

[holdem17]

I always limp with big hands early levels early position. I think its +EV in the long run not to get too much invested early on without a made hand.

The reason why I pushed is because I really thought this is a play that is made often by a poor player with small pp to either steal preflop or play against 1 opponent. I normally lay this hand down no problem but against this guy I couldnt lay it down. It ended up working out in the end he called and had 66 and my TT held. I think this might be -EV in the long run, but if he holds lower pockets more than higher pockets wouldnt this be +EV? I am not saying that he will be holding lower pockets more than higher pockets, just asking a question.

[whangarei]

I am surprised he made this raise with 66. Maybe I am giving raises like this too much credit, though until there is more evidence I would say more often than not this is a higher pair.

You raise a good question as to whether it would be +EV to push if he is likely to have a smaller pair. Of course the question is how likely? If 2/3 of the time then I would say it is +EV to push. Even 60% I would say push. Any less and it is getting close to a coin flip which negates any presumed advantage you have in the later stages of the tourney. I seriously doubt that 60% of the time you will be any more than a coin flip favorite at the $20 level, though. If you are I am switching to Full Tilt [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]