Free Showdown Play

[Justin A]

I'm convinced this is one of the worst plays that good players make. There are rather few spots where it is correct. Please post your situations where you think it's good and try to prove me wrong.

[Victor]

"I'm convinced this is one of the worst plays that good players make"

i doubt they are good players.

[bakku]

i can't remember the last time i used this play

[goofball]

1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[UtzChips]

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
EP open/raises. Doesn't matter how many people call, just so long as it's heads-up on the Turn.
Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
EP bets.
If anyone was in the hand, they fold to you in LP. You call.
You believe your opponent has the ability to open/raise with KQ in EP and bet it on the Flop occassionally when an ace comes with the king.
He also may have have AQ,AJ,AT, along with A8,A7 suited.
So, you're probably a Dog to have the best hand here, but not by a huge amount.
Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Opponent bets.
Now the 6 almost never gives him two pair. He wouldn't open/raise in EP with 66, so it didn't improve his hand. You have a flush draw.
You raise. Your play is now indicative of a flopped set, two pair, or Ace with a Queen kicker.
Now if your opponent has AK,AQ, he is most likely going to 3-bet and you'll know you have the bad Ace.If you were to just call on the Turn, you wouldn't know for sure that your ace is bad and would be inclined to call the River, so you would be paying two bets to confirm your ace is bad. The re-raise on the Turn confirms your ace is bad, but if you hit a spade on the River you are going to make more money.
If he has AT,AJ he may fold on rare occassions and if he has A8,A7, he may call close to 1/2 the time. Kx, he'll fold more often.
The key is: you had top pair on the Flop that had a chance of being the best hand; the Turn card didn't help your opponent, so, you may have the best hand on occassion, your opponent doesn't 3-bet the Turn with the worse hand, allowing you to find out the same info (you have the worse ace) with his 3-bet that you find out by calling him down, without putting in any extra bets as you'll fold on the River unless you make your Flush, and, if you hit your Flush, you make more money than if you had just called the Turn.
So, for the same price as calling down, you make more money when you hit your flush. If your opponent 3-bets, you are only paying 1 additional big bet to try and catch a Flush, and, since you'll catch it 1 out of 5 times, that is not so bad, since if the spade falls, your opponent will most likely be caught off guard and bet the River and at least call your raise.
You may also spike a 9 and beat his AQ,AJ with two pair.
You have to know your opponent.

Edit: This play has more value in home games that I play in, where you play against the same 20 guys, as you get paid off more often with your bigger hands.

[Justin A]

Utz,

That's a pretty bad spot for a turn raise. Maybe paying 3 bets only to fold on the river unimproved is far worse than paying two bets to see a showdown. The hand you posted well illustrates the concept of just calling when you have outs because you can't fold to a 3bet. The raise would be better if you didn't have a flush draw, but probably still ill advised.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You're seeing a showdown
2. Your hand has value unimproved (see 1)
3. Your hand could improve to something quite strong
4. If you do indeed improve you might not get to raise.
5. 3betting will be difficult for your opponent.


Another decent time if you think your opponent has a weak made hand (that beats you) or a draw (that you beat), and that there is some chance he will fold the weak but best made hand and call with the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused about point 2/3. Don't we want a hand that has little chance to improve? A hand where the river is only likely to hurt us? A hand that currently has value but may lose it once the river comes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought a free showdown raise was a possible value bet that was subject to losing its value.

This might be too simplistic, but my example would be:
Villain raises in MP. 1 call. Hero calls from Button with T9s. SB and BB are expected to call and do.

Flop: QT9
Villain bets, fold, Hero raises, blinds fold, Villain calls.

Turn: A
Villain donks, Hero raises.

Villain is unlikely to 3 bet with a bare ace. You can fold to the bet/3bet play with only 4 outs and I don't see any hands you're beating that a Villain is bet/3betting. The hand is only likely to weaken as bottom 2 is vulnerable to another Q, A, the opponents kicker, or his straight outs. Villain is likely to try for a check raise if his outs hit because of hero's aggression post-flop so I'm less concerned with river donks and paying 3 bets b/w turn/river.

Edit: Messed up postions.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
Utz,

That's a pretty bad spot for a turn raise. Maybe paying 3 bets only to fold on the river unimproved is far worse than paying two bets to see a showdown. The hand you posted well illustrates the concept of just calling when you have outs because you can't fold to a 3bet. The raise would be better if you didn't have a flush draw, but probably still ill advised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Justin,
Against KK+,ATo+,A7s+,KQ, you win 44.10%, lose 45.5% and tie 5.5%.
If your opponent will bet all of those hands but will not 3-bet with the worse hand, but will call your raise and check the River, you have the best of it, especially when he isn't willing to 3-bet with AT,AJ,AQ.
I did the math long ago and it worked out. I got this play from King Yao's book and it's worked well for me, however, I don't play in super aggressive games like you find in CA.
I do play against some aggressive players and would never consider making this play against them when they are running good and/or felling ballzy.
You also wouldn't make this play against someone who will continue to bet into you on the River with a weak holding such as an underpair to the King or a weaker ace.
I also have a friend who is a pro, plays up to 150/300 and uses this play under the right circumstances. In fact, he is the one who introduced me to the play, even though I already owned the book, I had never given the book much study, believing it was much of the same stuff with a lot of math in it to make it look like it was something new. It doesn't have much of anything new in it, however, it gives you something to think about if you want to study. Otherwise it's just a nicely bound book, with an attractive cover that looks like an important text book inside.

We are talking "live" play here, not on-line.

[rafiki]

I think the problem with the A9s scenario is when we're beat badly, we're paying way more for our flush draw (which we do have to call). When we're ahead, we're probably folding out a hand we'd like to keep around (Kx). Just seems like calling in that spot is fine.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm convinced this is one of the worst plays that good players make. There are rather few spots where it is correct. Please post your situations where you think it's good and try to prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is a valuable play, but agree that in most cases it is misapplied.