Set with lots of chasers, turn decision $4/180

markbris · #1 04-06-2007, 09:58 PM

What do you do here? Should i have raised more on the flop? I dont like leading the turn but is that what I should be doing? Lines?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t1180)
MP3 (t1920)
CO (t620)
Button (t2380)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1480)
UTG (t1440)
UTG+1 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, 1 fold, Hero calls t20, 2 folds, CO calls t20, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t100) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t20, Hero raises to t100, CO calls t100, SB calls t100, BB calls t100, UTG calls t80.

Turn: (t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ?

aces_full42 · #2 04-06-2007, 11:01 PM

I put out a pot-sized bet with those connected cards.

Nikoms · #3 04-07-2007, 12:38 AM

I think it was Mike Cairo that wrote a bit about this problem. The fact that enough donks calliing incorrectly, make each other right. The problem for you is not the raise to 100 although I would have gone to about 140 (which makes a fd incorrect to call, mathmatically) - it was the fact that the CO and SB called, thereby giving both the BB and UTG the right odds to call at their flush draws (or straights...or whatever).

The good news is that even IF someone has hit the flush - and has higher than a 4, you still have 10 outs on the river (i.e. any board card pairing or your 4th four, gives you a house). That gives you about a 20% of housing.

All that said, if someone did catch the flush - the good news is that they may have already checked. I'd check behind and hope the CO does too (as he shouldn't have a FD as the first to call your big flop raise) - then re-eval on the river.

The problem with betting here is that you are basically begging the flush (likely in the SB,BB or UTG) to raise - possibly making a call to see the river a mathmatical mistake for you. If you check and the CO bets big, and one of the blinds or UTG comes over the top, you can walk away unscathed.

Betting isn't necessarily bad here either, but just a little riskier. Who knows, maybe someone holding AJ of spades will get cute and just call - only to see a harmless 5 of clubs fall on the river...

DiscipleAA · #4 04-07-2007, 12:46 AM

I agree with nixom the FD has already checked hopeing that you bet again here (and there is almost defiantly a made flush at this point in the hand)... checking is your best bet... if say, it was 2 players to the turn... just you and Co... I like a bet for value (that looks like you want a call... and at the same time is actually a blocking bet as well)... probably to 200 (if the pot size were 600, it will get an opponent with a weaker hand to fold thinking you are begging for a call, while at the same time allows you to correctly price yourself in with 10 outs and making the A high flush draw incorrect to smooth call... 200 into what would be an 800 if he smooth calls with the made str8 or flush)... just thought Id cover the other angle because this is a difficult topic for many players...

Disciple

mariachiinc · #5 04-07-2007, 02:47 AM

I'd flop bet a little more, only to build the pot, at this stage in the 4/180's you could shove and get called by a fl/draw... Most players in this haven't ever heard the term pot odds before... As played check fold after the turn... 4 callers, at least one is on the flush draw...

IceMuncher · #6 04-09-2007, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd flop bet a little more, only to build the pot, at this stage in the 4/180's you could shove and get called by a fl/draw... Most players in this haven't ever heard the term pot odds before... As played check fold after the turn... 4 callers, at least one is on the flush draw...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily a c/f on turn. You've got full house outs, you may end up getting odds to call.

sethypooh21 · #7 04-09-2007, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd flop bet a little more, only to build the pot, at this stage in the 4/180's you could shove and get called by a fl/draw... Most players in this haven't ever heard the term pot odds before... As played check fold after the turn... 4 callers, at least one is on the flush draw...

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with this. I'm not saying shove, but you can still get bad callers with a much more sizable raise.

TEKEE · #8 04-10-2007, 10:19 AM

i fear the board on that flop and bet the flop hard to force out draws i bet like 200.

guaranteedBluff · #9 04-10-2007, 10:26 AM

Check the turn, someone almost definitely has the flush, and you don't want to get check-raised off of a boat draw. After you fill up on the river, get your chips in.

Foucault · #10 04-10-2007, 10:35 AM

Flop raise should be a little bit bigger, especially against loose opponents. You don't figure to be ahead after the turn, so check and try to see the river as cheaply as possible. You can factor in implied odds when determining whether to call against a likely flush, since you'll probably get paid off if the board pairs on the river.