Wrap OOP

[Aisthesis]

This is a 1/2 PLO hand that has been bugging me.

I just sat down at a very aggro table (average pot-size something like $80) and had made a big score very quickly when I raised KQJ9 in LP, got re-raised pot by an obvious AA, then flopped top two pair, which I check-raised for stack, got called, and they held up.

So, I have a little over $400 right away. Then a few hands later (no great reads yet), when it gets back to me after the first orbit, I have T987ds in SB with maybe 5 limpers. I make it $6 to go (I just figured this would fold no one but create a bigger pot on a strong hand).

Flop comes 356r (I have a runner-runner heart draw to my T), and I pot it for something like $25 OOP. MP player with around $300 flat calls, then stack of $100 raises pot. All others fold.

I decide to push here, and that's really my question. What I was really trying to do was get the bigger stack out (he really has to have some kind of 78, very likely with a pair, and I don't care too much for my hand if he has 6789 or something--I think he actually had 5678, which is equally bad for me, maybe worse) and take my chances HU for less money. So, the raise was more risk-reduction than anything else--at least that was my intention. And it also worked because MP folded and the shorty obviously called. (Result: I miss and he takes it down with top set and an A-high heart draw, which was kind of sucky since an additional heart did hit on the turn).

So, I guess safety is the main argument for my play, FWIW.

But I can also see arguments for a flat call or a fold.

Flat call: MP is likely to call or push, which should give me a better return on my investment if I win. But now I'm playing a draw for stack which is indeed fairly dominating but which would only be a 13 outer under the best circumstances. And it's really looking like my opponents have a lot of my outs.

And I guess that's the biggest argument for a fold. If one guy has some kind of 47 (raiser--he didn't actually have any blockers) and the other guy maybe 5678 (which I think he actually had based on comments after the hand), then I'm down to 9 outs. I think I can figure on at most 11, and I have no pair at all.

I really think my preference here is actually a fold--or is that just impossible on a wrap like that?

[Ribbo]

Pushing here is terrible usually. Your fold potential is 0%, your opponent clearly has a big hand. Wait for the turn card, if it pairs the board you can get off the hand, or if you think the guy has 47, you can shove the turn when you do have some fold equity.

As you said, if you had hels 6789 I would suggest shoving here, the additional pair often means you get heads up against someone else with 789 and if you both miss you take it down.

But really to summise, you did disguise your hand preflop, so players wont put you on what you actually hold which means they wont fold the flop. So shoving is pointless. Just call and if you hit the turn you will get paid off.

[Aisthesis]

I see your point, but I also see some problems with the call line.

We've got MP who flat called (and should have some draw, not necessarily huge--I think he could also have something like 5689, which is in good shape against me but wouldn't be against a made straight) and has the more dangerous stack of $300.

Then we have $100 stack who is clearly pot-committed, having already put $85 or so in. So, he'll definitely pay me off if I hit.

And maybe big stack will, too. But there's very little room to maneuver here. And if I flat call, I think there's a decent chance big stack will push. In that case, the paying off issue becomes moot.

I feel like that gets us more to a check-call line on the flop (giving sufficient stack-depth to make your idea work). And I really have no objections to that line except more the general principle that I generally don't like playing big draws passively. This might be an exception, however.

[Ribbo]

You can get off the hand if the board pairs the turn, so no need to commit all your chips on the flop when you know in all likelihood, if you hit, your opponents will not fold since they will not put you on the hand you actually hold.

[DonCologne]

At the flop you have a moderate draw (13 nut outs) OOP. You are preflop aggressor and beting it out into 4 villians is imo not the best choice, because they will reraise you here with many hands and not even the made straight.

Every set, 2 pair, pair + straight draw will think this flop cannot help you and that they are in front (and with this holdings indeed they are in front). So you will get many times a reraise and with check/call imo you would pay less to see the turn card or if there is a bet and a raise you get cheaply away from this pot.