Folding the nuts in omaha?

[Dzsenaj]

I always get it in with the nuts (either on the flop or the turn (and on the river haha)) if the opponent is willing to do it.
Are there situations where this is wrong?
Please post example HHs if there are...

[ocdscale]

Sorry I don't have a hand history, but it should be easy to figure out an (admittedly exaggerated) situation where folding the nuts would be +EV.

Lets suppose 2/4 Omaha. Forgive me if I get the pot amounts wrong.

(Everyone involved has 100BB, $400)
You're Button w/ K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG limps, CO limps, you raise preflop, blinds fold, limpers call.

Pot: $48

Flop comes up:
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
It's checked to you, you have the nuts. You pot it. UTG repots, CO repots (all in).
It's $338 to you. Pot is $578

I think there's no way you can call (especially if this is deep stacked). One or both have the same nuts + a much better redraw.
At best, you're splitting the pot, at worst you're completely free rolled when the flush completes or the board pairs. With the relatively little dead money in the pot, I do believe a fold is in order.

Not sure if my calculations are correct, but you have 27% equity against NUT+FD, 32% equity against NUT+Set, and need 36% to make this call. You're getting good odds against NUT+2Pair. (Without knowing whether SB will call or fold)

[MHP]

Its NEVER a horrible play to go-in with the nuts, but in a multiway pot with a lot of action in front of you- sometimes a fold is prudent. I have folded the nuts several times. Just because you have current nuts doesn't always make you the favorite to win the hand. Obviously, I think you must be over 100BB deep to even consider folding. You should probably be playing stakes significant enough to get felted feel painful.

[fnord_too]

Also, it can be correct to fold the nuts when you know you are playing for 1/2 (or 1/3 in a three way pot) at best, (i.e. you are being free rolled)

For instance, you have Ad Kc 3d Th and the board on the turn is Ts Js Qc 5c you pot and get repotted by a tight player who respects your bets. You are not getting 2:1 on your call, you are getting even money and are being free rolled almost definitely. This is not a happy spot, and folding is almost definitely right if you have a fair amount behind, especially if villain is capable of repping any draw that comes in on the end.

[RoundTower]

I agree this is a spot to think about folding if you have much behind, don't understand why you think you are getting even money though fnord.

[Bavid Denyamine]

I'd avoid mutli-way all-ins with redraws where you don't have any. In the spot ocdscale had, I'd rather have a flush draw than JT there. Of course, I'd rather have both, but avoid spots where 3 or more people are shoving and your hand can't improve. In a live game the other night, I thought about mucking 6642 on a 753 board with 2 clubs facing a reraise and an allin, but I'm too much of a donk to do it. Of course it came 3-J and I lost to J643, but that's Omaha [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Bavid Denyamine]

Of course, as I say that, stuff like this still happens:

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $200/$400
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $900</font>, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($2400, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $2400</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $7200</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $26400</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $43586</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button calls all-in $17579.5</font>.
Uncalled bets: $17579.5 returned to Button.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($72386, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $89572)


River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($72386, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $89572)


Results:
Final pot: $72386
UTG showed 6c 7c Kd Ad
Button showed Ah 3h 5h 5d

[Micturition Man]

I can't remember whether I've actually done it but it can definitely be correct in at least two general situations:

1. Multiway pots where it seems clear at least one person has the nut straight and you have no redraws, but signnificant redraws are possible.

2. Deep stacks in a heads up pot where you are sure your opponent either has the nuts or something better than the nuts (e.g. flush + set), and you have no redraws.

However sometimes in the above situation you might be able to get enough equity by calling and representing a draw and then bluffing the next street to make calling correct... I guess.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree this is a spot to think about folding if you have much behind, don't understand why you think you are getting even money though fnord.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had it right then I rethought it and messed it up. Assuming you are tied with no chance to improve you are really getting 1:2 (e.g. 200 in pot, 100 to call, you get 150 back).

[Micturition Man]

Who was button?