How much is it? NL all-in amount ruling

[El Diablo]

Thinking about this because of the Bellagio ruling thread in HSNL. This is a slightly different question than what's being discussed there.

Please provide answers to the following situation:

I bet $1,000. Player goes all-in.

a) I ask the player "How much more to call?" Player says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
b) I ask the dealer "How much more to call?" Dealer says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
c) I ask both and both give that answer

In all situations I call and lose.

Money is counted down, it's actually $7,000 total.

What is the ruling on what I owe in situation a) b) or c)?

[Photoc]

If the player and the dealer both agree that the bet is 4000. Call the floor and explain that is what they both said. Then you should only be calling 3000 more.

[El Diablo]

Photoc,

I added a scenario c), which is what you answered.

Please give your opinion on my initial question, though, which was what you think the correct ruling is if I ask either a) or b), but not both.

[ToDissemble]

I just double-checked with Bellagio on this one

A) Regardless of player's answer, you are responsible to call the full amount of his allin, or obv whatever amount you have on table up to that amount.
B) You will be held responsible for calling the amount verified by the dealer. If the dealer makes a mistake it is obv not your fault and you will only have to call what he stated as the amount.
C) same as situation B

I would like to add that although this is the rule at the Bellagio, I have been held responsible for an allin call at the Orleans Open in an PLO game even after the dealer told the floorperson he told me an incorrect bet amount. So it is a good idea to wait until the dealer breaks down chips and/or bill packets before stating your intent if there is any doubt at all.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about this because of the Bellagio ruling thread in HSNL. This is a slightly different question than what's being discussed there.

Please provide answers to the following situation:

I bet $1,000. Player goes all-in.

a) I ask the player "How much more to call?" Player says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
b) I ask the dealer "How much more to call?" Dealer says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
c) I ask both and both give that answer

In all situations I call and lose.

Money is counted down, it's actually $7,000 total.

What is the ruling on what I owe in situation a) b) or c)?

[/ QUOTE ]

A. You owe the full amount as it isn't official unless the dealer gives you the amount. Don't take a players word.

B. You owe $3000 more as this is what the dealer told you after you requested a chip count from him.

C. See B.

[AngusThermopyle]

If I am the bettor I am not required to tell the truth, right?

If the dealer makes a mistake, am I required to correct her? That would seem to go against the first proposition that I can lie.

If the dealer makes a mistake, why does that screw me out of $3000? If my opponent is required to pay me if I lie, why does the dealer's mistake let him off the hook? We all know the dealer and the house are not going to make up the $3000 difference.

So the answer to all three scenarios should be the same.

And didn't the original question involve a wad of bills rather than chips, so it makes it harder for a player to know if any of these 'counts' are close?

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Photoc,

I added a scenario c), which is what you answered.

Please give your opinion on my initial question, though, which was what you think the correct ruling is if I ask either a) or b), but not both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure thing. I think C was added or edited in maybe after I responded or right when I did? I could be mistaken.

Ok, for A: player is responsible for making sure what the player who moved all in actually has behind.

B: If you ask a dealer, they should be giving you the right information, but I'm not sure about this one yet and I've never seen it happen.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am the bettor I am not required to tell the truth, right?

If the dealer makes a mistake, am I required to correct her? That would seem to go against the first proposition that I can lie.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think lying in general about hands is one thing, deliberately lying about the amount of a bet is a douchebag move and if you are lucky will just get the rest of the table to hate you....if you are unlucky it will get you maimed/killed.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
I think lying in general about hands is one thing, deliberately lying about the amount of a bet is a douchebag move and if you are lucky will just get the rest of the table to hate you....if you are unlucky it will get you maimed/killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please refer to the answers given:

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, for A: player is responsible for making sure what the player who moved all in actually has behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

A. You owe the full amount as it isn't official unless the dealer gives you the amount. Don't take a players word.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

A) Regardless of player's answer, you are responsible to call the full amount of his allin, or obv whatever amount you have on table up to that amount.


[/ QUOTE ]

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about this because of the Bellagio ruling thread in HSNL. This is a slightly different question than what's being discussed there.

Please provide answers to the following situation:

I bet $1,000. Player goes all-in.

a) I ask the player "How much more to call?" Player says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
b) I ask the dealer "How much more to call?" Dealer says "$4,000 total, $3,000 to call"
c) I ask both and both give that answer

In all situations I call and lose.

Money is counted down, it's actually $7,000 total.

What is the ruling on what I owe in situation a) b) or c)?

[/ QUOTE ]

When there is a gross misunderstanding about the amount bet, you are not liable for the extra amount. Robert's rules has this one exactly right.

[ QUOTE ]
12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost the pot, but the player who had the better hand has an obligation not to show his hand until the correct amount is called. If the all-in player is a known angle shooter a case can be made for you owing nothing (that is now that you know the actual size of the bet you can act on your hand). Normally this should be ruled that you owe the amount that you understood the bet to be. When you ask the player and he says it is $3k more he is representing it as $3k more, he has an obligation to make his action clear when asked. If you ask the dealer and the dealer tells the wrong amount the player that made the bet has an obligation to speak up and protect his own action by telling the dealer he has it wrong.