Criticizing The Pros TV play

[EL Burro Loco]

I know it's a lot of fun and all, but i feel like people are overly critical of a pros overall abilities after watching a few tv hands. After all, like any competition people make mistakes. I have seen pro basketball players miss dunks or easy shots and passes, baseball players drop routine flys, hell one the greatest chess player in the world right now Victor Kramnov lost to a computer recently when he missed the easiest one move checkmate that even the lowest rated player would have seen (the blunder of the century it hath been dubbed.) Even a professional botches hands.

Also, it made me a lot more confident in my poker game to see pros making some silly mistakes or occasionally chasing.
Even some of the best play badly at times.

Ok I said my bit... flame away.

[TonyLA]

I think the more specific criticism is *tournament* pros poor play in cash games - I assume you're referring to how some tournament pros have played on HSP. If you're referring to something else - I apologize in advance for the misunderstanding.

Optimal tournament poker strategy is vastly different from optimal cash game strategy. It's pretty clear most of these tournament pros are not well versed in deep stack NL fundamentals and strategies.

[EL Burro Loco]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the more specific criticism is *tournament* pros poor play in cash games - I assume you're referring to how some tournament pros have played on HSP. If you're referring to something else - I apologize in advance for the misunderstanding.

Optimal tournament poker strategy is vastly different from optimal cash game strategy. It's pretty clear most of these tournament pros are not well versed in deep stack NL fundamentals and strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, sorry. I meant this mostly in response to all the HSP threads i read.

[Bonified]

Certain tournament pros (I'm sure you can fill in the names) engage in constant self-promotion and self-aggrandisement when it's fairly clear that their main skill is extracting the maximum from weak/scared players in large tournament fields. When these pros step into televised cash games with better players and have their arses handed to them it is incredibly tempting to stick the boot in by criticising their play on forums like this. Like Oscar Wilde, I can resist everything but temptation and have succumbed on occasion. Mostly now I just derive a lot of enjoyment watching the pwning, and when CTP flies into a rage that makes it even better.

[theman]

I like this topic, as it has been something that I have thought about recently myself. I have some comments/opinions on this subject matter, although I have by no means thoroughly thought them all out with precision.

But anyhow, here are some views I have:

First, I think fan/viewer/amateur/professional criticism of a professional poker player's play of a particular hand is both warranted/acceptable and can be beneficial to the game. As observers, part of what we come to expect and desire is a "good game" with smart moves from two poker players battling back and forth. When one of those players makes an obvious mistake (or possibly just a marginal decision), there is nothing wrong with pointing that out and debating/discussing it. It would be the same as discussing a colossal upset in a football or basketball game (saying how a team collectively failed to close out a victory) or some specific mistake (such as those you've mentioned above) from some other professional athlete. As long as the goal is not to deride that professional player personally, but to discuss how he or she could have better played a hand, there is nothing harmful about that. Instead, I think it makes for great conversation and helps the game in general (by encouraging great play).

On the other hand, being allowed to make those criticisms does not necessarily mean we are correct and the professional player was wrong. That is always up for debate, so long as there was not a blatantly, obvious, universally agreed-upon error (which does happen).

The second point is that I think this is perhaps more commonplace in poker (compared to other sports) for two reasons:

a.) There is more of an openness of strategy and creativity to the game for particular hands/situations (particularly in no-limit holdem) compared to other games that professional athletes play in.

b.) The "sport" of poker is not a truly professional one in that many amateurs are able to pony up the cash and play against the best pros in the game, therefore, making it more of a donkey fest at times. Hell, there are even pros out there, who may not even be that good and prone to frequent mistakes, but have somehow gotten lucky in the short-term and now try to represent the game and market themselves as top pro players. These guys will often make just as many donkey moves as bad players/amateurs (...uhh, Clonie Gowen,...David Williams....Phil Gordon ring a bell?).

And lastly, I do think that as long as we separate a specific hand analysis from our overall assessment of a player's skill and talent, it is completely ok and useful for the game. Saying so and so player messed up this hand badly is not necessarily the same as saying he sucks period. We can still acknowledge a players successful track record and overall abilities, while pointing out a specific failure they may have made in a game. But I do like the idea of being more respectful of them and not judging their play based on a small sample size of hands shown on TV.

Great discussion topic, let's get more feedback here!

-TheMan

[MegaRigger]

What TheMan says looks quite correctly to me, but there's one important property of poker you should never forget when criticizing TV-play : poker is a situational game. When a players makes a certain move wich looks pretty donkish it could have exactly been a play made for a good reason, we simply don't know why that player made that move: maybe he thought he had a read (wich still is a mistake, but for an other reason than the critiques think), he was setting something up,... We can never be sure about it. It's important to discuss about how players play, but it's should always be a critique on the play, not the player.

[dtshuf]

Does anyone think that the players on HSP may not be playing optimally on purpose? Maybe they are drumming up business, trying to get the idea out there that they are not great players and are very beatable.

[theman]

possibly, but probably not likely at those stakes. they'd be risking quite a lot (several hundred grand) to try to improve their meta-game.

also, it's not like they play NLHE REGULARLY at those stakes anyways. so it's not as though a Joe Schmoe would just walk in and play them that high (at least i don't think).

although i could see some of those guys doing it in smaller ways....but certainly not in those big all-in type pots.

-TheMan