My first day in real money

[zan nen]

I got my first $50 ever loaded onto stars today and started at some micro limits. I wasn't doing so well really, making several calls that my gut told me was wrong. I know that I still have a lot of learning to do but I can tell my main problem is just not having the discipline to not hit the call button. A few hands that I raised preflop with and actually hit were big wins but I ended up down about $6.

I was moderately tilting and thought to myself that if I was going to fail, I should at least play what I love (MTT). So, I sat at a $1 + .20 45 player tourney and ended up 2nd ($10). When I was still stuck on pay chips, I played MTT about 80% of the time but had heard that this was risky with real money.

I feel a lot better now, but I was wondering how many other people are like me and started making most of their earnings from MTT. Anyhow, I also have my trial poker tracker working somewhat. I want to test my hand at using the hand converter, so here is one important hand from the tourney. This guy just started going all-in 4/5 hands, but I was happy to get rid of him. Of course another maniac/blind stealer appeared as soon as he left, but the next guy wasn't as bad.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t75/t150
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4630
UTG+1: t3300
CO: t2795
Button: t1275
Hero: t10105
BB: t3880

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t150 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t225)</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls t75 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t375)</font>, BB checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t450, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 is all-in t3150</font>, Hero calls t3150 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t3600)</font>, BB folds.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t6750, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t6750)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6750, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t6750)


Results:
Final pot: t6750
<font color="#F0F8FF">UTG+1 showed Jh 7c</font>
<font color="#F0F8FF">Hero showed Qs 9c</font>

I don't know how I feel about my call here. The hand converter gave an option to display pot odds, but they don't seem to have showed up. Next on my list of being prepared to really play is to check out pokerstove and maybe the PAHUD (if this works for stars).

What is the graph software that many people use as well? I think it is called PokerGrapher or something but it isn't listed in the FAQ in the software forum.

If anyone has any comments on this hand or anything else, I appreciate your input. I may post more hands later today and discuss some other things.

[Shoot59]

Comments:

1) Welcome to the forums
2) There is a forum for MTT's, post trouble hands there
3) It is a bad idea to call massive overbets with a gutshot + overcard no matter how bad the villain is. If he is that bad, you should be able to find a better spot.
4) PokerGrapher is available at overcards.com (i think)
5) Read the FAQ's in the beginner and tourney forums before posting.
6) Good luck!

[zan nen]

Thanks. I found Pokergrapher now, just need to install the .NET framework.

I pretty much knew that I was making a risky call. Out of the previous 20 hands this guy had folded PF about 2 times, checked then all in on flop about 4 times and gone all-in preflop the rest... so, It was obvious that he was betting with nothing some of the time. This contributed to me making the call a lot. Pokerstove says that I was about a 4:1 underdog knowing what he had, 3:2 with some good hands he might have and dead even with random cards. I had the queen to cap off my gutshot draw that I thought he might be on too.

I really hate these micro tables.. I hope that I can continue to do well in the MTT. I am somewhat falling into the "I want to move up to where people respect my raises" mentality but I know better from reading books. I guess the way to deal with this is just play ultra tight and multi-table until I can build my bankroll.

I have one random question that isn't important but bothering me too. On PS there are some high stakes HORSE tables marked as "special". What is that all about?

[T50_Omaha8]

It means they are very high stakes and require a special clearance to play.

Terrible call BTW.

[zan nen]

Is the call really that terrible in light of how the guy was going all in constantly and me having 2x as many chips as the next highest stack early on in that tourney? I don't think that I would have made the call even against a normal aggressive player. I think that I made some worse plays later anyhow.

I put him on 1 pair at best and not pocket queens or something because he probably would have been all in preflop. I felt like I had 7 outs (3Q + 4 10's). Do you have a better suggestion for dealing with "maniacs" besides pulling pocket aces?

[Shoot59]

Yes the call was terrible, and just because you hit doesn't make it less terrible. As I said before, there are tons of better spots to get the $$ in vs this guy (top pair maybe?)

[zan nen]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes the call was terrible, and just because you hit doesn't make it less terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh. Yes, I know this. Now get your heaviest, hardest book of poker theory and mathematics and get ready to throw it at my head. Part of making my decision was based on my gut feeling, specifically that I was going to hit a 10 on the turn. I know, I know that I shouldn't make decisions influenced by such witchcraft.. I guess that using my gut feeling (or more often refusing to listen to my instincts) is just one of my flaws that I am going to need to work on.

I am more than willing to admit that I am wrong on this hand but I want to continue to argue my side if for no other reason than to learn. I really just wanted to practice using the hand converter for the first time and look back through hand histories for what my opponent mucked. I think that there is probably a lot more about tournament play from this hand. I really am not in denial that my decision was poor, but can you guys quantify "terrible" for me?

Now, I am probably going to make more of an ass out of myself and invent a term to try to justify my play. I will call it "kill equity", basically accepting into the equation this player's behavior and things like blinds being stolen, my stacks ability to absorb the hit of losing this all in, even possibly lost action from the rest of the table as the tournament marches on and the villain is still terrorizing the table.

I think that I understand the suggested technique for dealing with a maniac.. Get a strong starting hand (maybe AJs or better?) and call his all in, assuming that he is pushing with often marginal hands...OR..Hope that you get to limp on one flop out of every 5-10 and catch TPTK. If you limped with QJo and the board came rainbow J/6/2 would you call his all in? Where do you personally draw the line as to what is acceptable and not terrible?

This maniac seemed to play with some sort of rule set. Possibly it is something like all in PF with J9o or better, fold total junk like 72o, and everything else call the blind then push with as bad as top pair any kicker. I would not call an all in like that from a normal player. His bet might suggest that he has 2 pair if he had another table image. Instead his play suggested that he might have zilch, top pair any kicker, or the same gutshot draw as me (and I have the Q to cap the straight and beat his gutshot).

I know that I only had a couple hundred chips already invested in the pot. I could have just let the table sort it out and sit on my large chip lead longer than anyone else. I should review the rest of the hands. I think that he had knocked out a player or two and people weren't calling him at all for a bit. Basically, I don't doubt that my play was -EV. I would have loved to have been able to limp and flop the nut flush, but I still feel that this play was not as bad as you guys say.

I am sure that this is not the type of play that you should consider at a ring game, but it still seems okay in this situation. You can't guarantee that you are a favorite in every hand. Coming into the final table still above the average chip count is still plenty to win.

In other news, I hate ring games and sucked at .01/.02 today. I can't blame not knowing what to do so much as just allowing myself to make stupid decisions. I thought that I would have had an easier time, but I know that I had some bad luck too on some big hands. I sat another 45 person MTT tonight and came in 3rd, leaving me with down 6 cents on the day.. + 4 FPP towards clearing my bonus.

I am towards the end of reading SSHE (for the first time) and picked up Harrington's book at the library, starting with vol. 2 since that was the only one there. Thanks to anyone who has the patience to read through my newbie ideas

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes the call was terrible, and just because you hit doesn't make it less terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh. Yes, I know this. Now get your heaviest, hardest book of poker theory and mathematics and get ready to throw it at my head. Part of making my decision was based on my gut feeling, specifically that I was going to hit a 10 on the turn. I know, I know that I shouldn't make decisions influenced by such witchcraft.. I guess that using my gut feeling (or more often refusing to listen to my instincts) is just one of my flaws that I am going to need to work on.

I am more than willing to admit that I am wrong on this hand but I want to continue to argue my side if for no other reason than to learn. I really just wanted to practice using the hand converter for the first time and look back through hand histories for what my opponent mucked. I think that there is probably a lot more about tournament play from this hand. I really am not in denial that my decision was poor, but can you guys quantify "terrible" for me?

Now, I am probably going to make more of an ass out of myself and invent a term to try to justify my play. I will call it "kill equity", basically accepting into the equation this player's behavior and things like blinds being stolen, my stacks ability to absorb the hit of losing this all in, even possibly lost action from the rest of the table as the tournament marches on and the villain is still terrorizing the table.

I think that I understand the suggested technique for dealing with a maniac.. Get a strong starting hand (maybe AJs or better?) and call his all in, assuming that he is pushing with often marginal hands...OR..Hope that you get to limp on one flop out of every 5-10 and catch TPTK. If you limped with QJo and the board came rainbow J/6/2 would you call his all in? Where do you personally draw the line as to what is acceptable and not terrible?

This maniac seemed to play with some sort of rule set. Possibly it is something like all in PF with J9o or better, fold total junk like 72o, and everything else call the blind then push with as bad as top pair any kicker. I would not call an all in like that from a normal player. His bet might suggest that he has 2 pair if he had another table image. Instead his play suggested that he might have zilch, top pair any kicker, or the same gutshot draw as me (and I have the Q to cap the straight and beat his gutshot).

I know that I only had a couple hundred chips already invested in the pot. I could have just let the table sort it out and sit on my large chip lead longer than anyone else. I should review the rest of the hands. I think that he had knocked out a player or two and people weren't calling him at all for a bit. Basically, I don't doubt that my play was -EV. I would have loved to have been able to limp and flop the nut flush, but I still feel that this play was not as bad as you guys say.

I am sure that this is not the type of play that you should consider at a ring game, but it still seems okay in this situation. You can't guarantee that you are a favorite in every hand. Coming into the final table still above the average chip count is still plenty to win.

In other news, I hate ring games and sucked at .01/.02 today. I can't blame not knowing what to do so much as just allowing myself to make stupid decisions. I thought that I would have had an easier time, but I know that I had some bad luck too on some big hands. I sat another 45 person MTT tonight and came in 3rd, leaving me with down 6 cents on the day.. + 4 FPP towards clearing my bonus.

I am towards the end of reading SSHE (for the first time) and picked up Harrington's book at the library, starting with vol. 2 since that was the only one there. Thanks to anyone who has the patience to read through my newbie ideas

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

no really, it was a terrible call.

you know he is a terrible player (mostly because his bet is terrible no matter what hand he has..that is, unless he knows you will call that bet with Q9o [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

but this is not a place that you can take advantage of the situation..you simply have to fold..

-don't consider your "gut" instincts...I guess that if you believe in some type of supernatural forces (and for some reason they help you make poker decisions)..there's no use in me saying this, but here goes...there are no gut feelings, no premonitions, no rushes, no jinxes, ...nothing like that..if you makes decisions based on those things, you will lose your BR.

[ QUOTE ]
blinds being stolen,

[/ QUOTE ]

that is pretty much irrelevent here

[ QUOTE ]
my stacks ability to absorb the hit of losing this all in,

[/ QUOTE ]

the only time that plays sometimes switch from -EV to +EV based on how much of your stack will be going in is when you are about to be in the money or in the money scale...that's a general statement, but in any case, in this situation, it really doesn't matter that only 1/3 of your stack is at risk..it is still a grossly -EV play.

-this hand reminds me of table chat where some guy calls another guy's allin with J high and says, "I thought he was bluffing."...it doesn't matter whether or not the other guy was actually bluffing. In your hand, it doesn't matter that this guy is a bad player..you can't exploit that by calling here.

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that this is not the type of play that you should consider at a ring game, but it still seems okay in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

you actually have it quite backwards here..

in a ring game, chips = money..so any play that will gain you chips necessarily gains you money..

but in tournaments, chips do not equal money...and as a general rule, chips you gain are worth less than chips you already have. This is more true around the payout bubble or in the payout scale..but anwyay, this isn't really all that important for this hand..just as long as you know that the argument that "it's not a ring hand" doesn't really make sense.

anyway..everything that I just said probably doesn't make much sense to you..and I'm sure I'm not explaining it well anyway..

so keep reading books and the forums..

I would suggest finding out one type of game you want to play and focussing on that..1c/2c ring games are probably your best bet IMO.

good luck,

Chris

[Big Tuna]

As a newbie myself I'm not really in a position to give advice, but this is a position I find myself in quite often as well, and I'm trying to get past making these kind of calls myself (and it is as bad a call as the other people are saying).

The thing is, maniac or not, this guy is giving himself two ways to win. He will be expecting you to fold most of the time. Both the blinds called and checked the flop. He can reasonably expect that neither of you have anything. The all-in here is not a particularly elegant move but the Villain can be fairly sure neither of you have anything. By pushing all-in he gives himself two ways of winning. Taking down the pot right there or improving his crap so it beats the crap of anyone who calls him.

When you call all-in you only have the one way of winning. Improving your crap so it beats his crap. Like him, you're relying on luck to turn a nothing hand into something. Unlike him you don't have the additional possibility of taking down the pot right then and there.

Read section 9 in HoH II. It's geared towards the end game, but some of it applies to this situation. You'll be sick of the term "first in vigorish" by the end of the section. He's really trying to hammer home how important it is to be the first in in these situation. The added +EV of being able to take down the pot without going to showdown is such a big factor in decided what moves to make here.

The other problem is before the call you're and as described in your post, you're doing everything right. You've identified a weak player, you know you can stack him, you're poised and ready to take him down. This is a great position to be in. There are significant number of chips sitting there with your name on them.

You wait, you find yourself in a situation when you yourself admit is -EV and you pounce? It doesn't make sense. You're in a fantastic position to set a trap, but rather than do that you chose to make your move in a situation where you are fully aware the chances of a likely outcome are not favorable.

Why? By definition a trap requires that you are certain the outcome is very much likely to be in your favour. So despite all this knowledge you have and the potential upside of the situation you're actively choosing to throw that all away and go with a gut feeling when you know the odds are against you.

Hopefully someone corrects me if I've said anything wrong there. As I said I'm a newbie myself. Good luck!

[Spanky1974]

Fold pre-flop. You won't be tempted to make a terrible call on the flop.