sick sick hand -200NL 6max

[Riina]

SB seems the most solid experienced player at the table, i think my image is fairly solid as well. He has seen me make some thin valuebets so that must count for something right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Then this hand comes up

SB ($307.55)
Hero in the BB ($253.25)
UTG ($224.05)

Hero has QsQh

UTG limps, everybody folds to the SB, who potraises to $9. Hero potraises to $26, SB potraises to $80, Hero calls.

flop: Tc 5h 4s (pot $160)

SB bets $180, hero ?

any comments appreciated,

[GittyUP]

Ive had 2 spots very similar to this the other day. Both times I got stacked off. One with a higher PP, the other with top set. The only hands you beat are JJ or AK here, maybe 77-99.

How has villain been playing so far? 3betting, 4betting freqency? How has his cbetting frequency been? If villain is very aggro Id call. If he is fairly tight and nitty fold.

[DefiNe]

calling pf means you have to call here right? Otherwise why are you calling pf, the only hand that's drawn out on you is TT

[carrotsnake]

fold preflop? I don't get it, for him to raise in the SB his range is so defined, I don't think I even 3 bet here that often tbh

[djj6835]

I fold preflop but I'm a nit. How often to people 4-bet oop without the goods?

[fringsrache]

for me thats def a fold pf unless villain is 3bet too lightly. then i a happy to get my money in here.

[uNIS]

Fold preflop, as played u really have to get it all in. This is what u are looking for if u call the 4 bet like that.

[Psydoc]

You shouldn't call pf to fold now. That said, fold pf.

[Riina]

Yes i fold the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ,

Okay, i guess i have a very different view of the situation as most people who have replied, so let me try explain,

i dont get why most people try to tie folding the flop to 'thus you could have saved yourself a lot by folding pf'. It seems flawed logic to me. In my opinion im dealing with two different ranges, and they have to be dealt with seperately. Yes the one follows out of the other, but preflop it is nonexistent at that point.

Preflop my potraise tells him i have a strong hand. Yet, from his point of view there is position involved in my range wich broadens it up considerably(AA-TT, AKs-AJs, AKo, perhaps AQo). With lots of these hands i can pick the pot up unimproved if we go to a flop and make him lay down the best hand. This opens up the possibility for him to potraise me back with AKs(and perhaps AKo), and force me off most of the holdings in that range, perhaps even make me lay down a pair like JJ or TT. If i would push in return, he could still find a fold without being comitted. Therefor i call his potraise making me call about 54 in a 100-and-then-some pot.

Now with this call, for him my range narrows down considerably (AA-QQ, perhaps JJ, some possibility of AKs).

The flop comes with total blanks. He pushes. Would he try to gamble with AKs, knowing that most players are on autocall with any overpair and he could be virtually drawing dead, my guess is not. There is a slim chance so you have to give it some possibility, but for me when he pushes his range narrows down tot AA-QQ. Hence, getting 2:1 i fold.

of course comments appreciated,

[slickss]

Since you are folding on such a dry flop, it means you are basically playing QQ for set value. This is fine, but then you may have to rethink the odds you're getting preflop.

That said, when he is 3-betting from the SB preflop - I consider folding QQ.