Help! -90%ROI

[Statutory]

If you take out one PP million score where I final tabled from less than 1BB with 180 ppl left, I have at least a -90% ROI in MTTs.

I grind 5/10nl for a living and play around 65k hands/month. I have a 15% ROI in up through $100+ SnGs (Sample size in in thousands).

I would like to say LOL Donkaments and chalk this up to variance, but that doesn't accomplish anything. I play all the big Sunday's and can never get anything going. I plan on playing most of the Series including the ME and will really like to show some success before I leave for Vegas.

So, has anyone here been a successful Mid/High SNL player, successful Mid/High SnG player, and not transitioned well into MTTs?

If so, what adjustment or resources helped you make the transition? Even if you only play MTTs, feel free to take a guess at what I could be missing.

Thanks

[TCA]

I would suggest watching some of the Hand Histories in this forum, some of the higher stakes ones are quite useful and they are worth it even if you only pick up one useful thing.

You obviously know how to play, you probably just need to make a few adjustments, most of which will involve altering your aggressiveness throughout the tournament and adapting to varying stack size/blind situations.

You could always just play all in preflop poker like at least one of the most successful online players does (then never lose). No names.

You could always just go and clear up the cash games at the series, they will be very weak anyway. Then play a couple of events - I think you will probably find this the most +EV thing for you to do. (Guessing you might just want a bracelet though).

[betgo]

I would try spending a few days multitabling low buyin MTTs. I think you are playing to high for your MTT skill level. I was an MTT player and I started playing online cash games by 8-tabling $50NL. Now I can beat $200NL pretty easily 10-tabling.

It is OK to play the WSOP ME which is very soft and maybe some of the soft low buyin WSOP events, but it seems kind of silly to play most of the events. You are just dead money like the players with big tournament scores playing high stakes cash games.

[tendog]

how many have you played? (the amount of sample size needed for MTTs is prety large)

what is your ROI with the big score (because that is how tourneys are - basically final tables are all the matter for the most part)

i think its alot easier to go from playing cash to playing tourneys. there is just alot of situations that are somewhat dictated by stack size, blind level etc. that are a bit different than cash but not hard to learn.

if your good at cash you should have no troubling being good at tourneys (of course even if your good at tourneys you could play everh world series event and have bad results just because of variance.)

but in your in a good spot if you can beat 5/10 tourneys should not be a problem. playing post flop cash poker is more complicated than tourney situations. i can barely beat tourneys and i think id be crushed at 5/10.

[Statutory]

thanks for the tips so far.

I honestly don't know how many tourneys I have played. Maybe 150ish?

Not quite sure what my total ROI is. Slightly green if I had to guess, 35k goes along way for $200 buyins. Its pretty hard for me to count that score in my ROI. Having <1bb and randomly winning 10AI's in a row to final table isn't the same as getting a stack and navigating a tournament IMO.

My lack of success really confuses me. I think cash should give me a top deep stack game. And SnG ICM experience should get me through the short stack times.

But Ill read some of the hands here and maybe spot something I do wrong.

I might spend a day on stars playing a ton of MTT's. Up til this point I haven't bothered with MTTs lower than 100. Do you think that playing <$50 buyins will give me relevant experience for the Series?

[roo400]

I think that playing MTTs with a buy in of 100 and over will help you a lot more as the skill level is better there, especially late where resteals are more common. I would also play tons of rebuys (10+$) because those are good for deep stack experience.

[betgo]

First of all, you ROI is positive. You have to include the final table. However, 150 MTTs is too small a sample.

I would suggest starting by multitabling low buyin MTTs. At a certain level, these are very beatable. Just get your confidence that you can beat a certain level and move up to a higher level. In low buyin online, the play is very loose fishy. At higher buyins, live, and in later in the tournaments it tends to get weak/tight. I don'tknow if low buyin online MTTs correspond to the WSOP, but I would first make sure I could beat them before taking on the WSOP.

I don't know that a successful cash game player will necessarily be winning in WSOP events or higher buyins online MTTs. The WSOP ME is similar to cash games in that it is fairly deep stacked. However, there are a lot of adjustments to donkament play.

First of all, you have to learn to play against some (but not all) really bad players. Also, later in donkaments the play gets very tight and you are really fighting over the blinds and antes. You also play differently with shallow money. Generally, you play AK or HH stronger preflop and draws or top pair stronger on the flop. The table can change from very loose to very tight and you have to adapt to the changes. There are prize money considerations and it is not always correct to play to maximize cEV as in cash games.

[Bond18]

If we're talking 150 sample you have nothing to worry about. Play 850 more and if your still neg ROI you've got problems.

[TakenItEasy]

Your sample size is pretty small.

Since your SnG and cash games are doing ok which represent early and end MTT. You probably need work on your middle game. Knowing when to shift gears is key here.

BTW in $10K events, the stacks are much deeper than online events so they are not a good comparison.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Your sample size is pretty small.

Since your SnG and cash games are doing ok which represent early and end MTT. You probably need work on your middle game. Knowing when to shift gears is key here.

BTW in $10K events, the stacks are much deeper than online events so they are not a good comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, if you can beat cash games and SNGs but not tournaments I suggest the following possibilities.

1. Variance.

2. Need to learn MTTs at a lower buyin, as you would if you decided to play razz cash games or something.

3. Need to learn to adapt to different tournament conditions.

4. Need to be willing to take big marginal gambles and think in terms of playing for your stack.

5. Need to understand situations with 15-40xBB and preflop and postflop semibluff push plays common with those stack sizes.

I learned cash games and SNGs before tournaments, and for a long time I knew how to play deep stack and how to pushbot, but playing a medium stack was a weakness in my play.