Interesting Hand, Obvious Move?

[Hey_Porter]

Friend of mine told me about this hand, and both of us had the same thought on what should have happened, and both interested in how oblivious most B&M players would be of what was going on, and what it meant.

2/5 NL. Four players see the flop, which comes J with a couple low cards, rainbow. First to act bets out $20. Next player folds, player A in middle position raises by throwing out $50 in chips. Player B on the button says "raise," but only throws out $50, having missed the fact that A had raised. He is visibly upset, questions what the minimum is he has to put in, and puts in the required $100, leaving him with about $250 left. No chance this is a play. Player A just smooth calls. Turn is a K. A checks, B goes all in, A folds.

Thoughts?

[Photoc]

Thoughts: Player B should pay attention to the action. It's not really that interesting to be honest. This type of things happens all the time at basically any NL game. I dont really consider it an "obvious move" either. He may have just caught the best hand or the other guy may have missed his draw or any other number of things.

[GrinningBuddha]

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He is visibly upset, questions what the minimum is he has to put in, and puts in the required $80, leaving him with about $270 left. No chance this is a play. Player A just smooth calls. Turn is a K. A checks, B goes all in, A folds.

Thoughts?

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FYP.

Hard to say if there's shenanigans if we don't know the relationship between A and B. This is a fairly common occurrence, at least as far as the flop. There are plenty of reasons why the hand played out as it did, very few of them dealing with collusion.

[Hey_Porter]

I didn't explain this well at all, and this might not even be the best forum for it. It would have been better to put yourself in A's shoes, and say that you have AJ. The point was, if you're in this position and witness this, the only "right" move, I think, is to push. You have a player behind you who, based on his reactions, 1) doesn't really want to put much money in the pot and 2) probably has a had worse than yours (or else he'd be wanting to put more money in). Smooth calling allows what happened to happen: player B catches his two pair on the turn.

Again, horribly presented, but why I thought this was interesting is because 1) it shows why B&M action can be so juicy with the added physical tells and mistakes and 2) it is amazing how few B&M players recognize this kind of stuff. Move along.

[AngusThermopyle]

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say that you have AJ

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So, you knew A's cards? How can you be so sure about the 'right way' to play the hand unless you are sure what A had?

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doesn't really want to put much money in the pot

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So absolutely no way this was an act? Player A was totally clueless in maybe 'smelling a fish' and thinking Player B was putting on an act?

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probably has a had worse than yours (or else he'd be wanting to put more money in)

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Again, you have no idea what Player A had. And there was a third player in the pot. No way that Player B had a set and wanted to trap?

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what happened to happen: player B catches his two pair on the turn

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Huh? You or your friend was Player B? He showed KJ?

[djoyce003]

it seems to be a fairly common semi-angle shoot to "accidentally" raise because you missed the action or something...act really weak and then raise the minimum "because your hand is so bad" when you really have the nuts.

The facts are that this player intended to at least raise the lead bet, which signifies a semi-decent hand. Even if player A had top pair and a good kicker, there's a decent chance that B has that beat. Given his act, it's probably a lot better. Weak means strong.

I call this "accidental" raise or overbet a semi-angle shoot because in my mind it's dishonest at least to some degree to throw something into the action that is more than just a bet, check, call or fold. In my mind it's ok to call, or raise, and act weak or strong or however you want to act, but I disagree with throwing some monkey-wrench into the mix like saying you didn't mean to raise, or raising $200 into a $20 pot and then acting like you thought you were throwing different sized chips in, etc. Just play poker for gods sake.

BTW player B had the nuts probably, or at least a set.

[Hey_Porter]

Sigh. Never mind. But yes, player B showed, and player A said what he had. And I trust my friend's read (who was at the table) that there was no way this was an act from B.

[Percula]

The smooth call is not bad if the second raiser is aggressive and you can count on him not shutting down on a scare card.

3-betting live on a dry flop will drive out most hands less sets, i.e. only a better hand calls.

[DGenR8]

Looks like an honest mistake to me.