3/6 AQ nothing hits, fold the river unimproved ?

Stormbind · #1 03-19-2007, 03:10 PM

Villain is 28/22/3.6 over 163 hands.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ?

b]Final Pot:[/b] 7 BB

How often (if ever) do you call the river ? Does the rest look ok ?

jba · #2 03-19-2007, 03:13 PM

i would pretty much never call the river.

I know somebody is going to suggest raising the flop, but I think it's bad. he really wants to 3bet.

mvoss · #3 03-19-2007, 03:14 PM

I fold here pretty much always. Villain looks over aggressive and could be betting the flop with a draw, but that flop hit a lot of other hands as well and if he had a flush draw it came in on the turn. I don't think you'll be good here often enough after he bet all the way postflop.

colgin · #4 03-19-2007, 03:25 PM

The only reasonable hands that you are beating are AT and KT, the number of combos of which are far outnumbered by the many hands that beat you.

Fold always.

Gurravasa · #5 03-19-2007, 05:21 PM

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i would pretty much never call the river.

I know somebody is going to suggest raising the flop, but I think it's bad. he really wants to 3bet.

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I feel pionted out here. I would often raise this flop for a possible freecard, information and to get this hand HU. How do you know he wants to 3-bet on this drawy board? If I was that sure that he has a really strong hand and he wants to jam the flop, well then I would get out right here there on the flop. But I don't see how you can be that sure and I wouldn't give up this hand yet so I raise.

jba · #6 03-19-2007, 05:36 PM

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i would pretty much never call the river.

I know somebody is going to suggest raising the flop, but I think it's bad. he really wants to 3bet.

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I feel pionted out here.

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why would you think i'm calling you out. lots of the kids these days raise overs in this spot, I had no idea you would.

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I would often raise this flop for a possible freecard,

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almost 100% of the time he bet/calls the flop and checks to you on a blank turn you're giving a free card not taking one. (of course this ties back to my thinking he's 3betting you lots here)

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information

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1- you raise and he calls and checks to you, now you take a free card because apparently you think you're behind and need to improve to see a showdown.
2- you raise and he 3bets and now you know you need to improve to see a showdown.

so what are we learning exactly?

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and to get this hand HU.

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why do you want it headsup? you're drawing - the more the merrier. you might clean up your T outs by getting another Q to fold but that's the least of your concerns

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How do you know he wants to 3-bet on this drawy board?

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because this board SMASHES the big blind with two pair hands, pair+straight draw hands, pair+flush draw hands, and straight+flush draw hands. he bet into the PFR. his stats indicate he is not the bet/call sort of guy.

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If I was that sure that he has a really strong hand and he wants to jam the flop, well then I would get out right here there on the flop.

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your hand is plenty strong enough to continue even if you know 100% he has a hand that wants to 3bet.

Guy McSucker · #7 03-19-2007, 05:40 PM

I was loving this post until this part:

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your hand is plenty strong enough to continue even if you know 100% he has a hand that wants to 3bet.

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If we think he has two pair or pair+draw, why would we call this?

Guy.

jba · #8 03-19-2007, 05:42 PM

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I was loving this post until this part:

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your hand is plenty strong enough to continue even if you know 100% he has a hand that wants to 3bet.

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If we think he has two pair or pair+draw, why would we call this?

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just pot odds bro.

Leader · #9 03-19-2007, 05:47 PM

The flop isn't a raise because of the parlay of things that would have to happen for it to be good vs. this opponent. I think there are other opponents where a raise would be good however. Especially, a combination of BB being weak/passive and SB being reasonable.

Gurravasa · #10 03-20-2007, 04:03 AM

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[why would you think i'm calling you out. lots of the kids these days raise overs in this spot, I had no idea you would.

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Nah I just felt like it, cause when I read this hand I think RAISE! by instinct.

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almost 100% of the time he bet/calls the flop and checks to you on a blank turn you're giving a free card not taking one. (of course this ties back to my thinking he's 3betting you lots here)

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I don't follow here... You mean that if he bet/call the flop and checks turn, I probably have him beat on the flop, but he has a stronger draw the I do? That pretty much makes sense...

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1- you raise and he calls and checks to you, now you take a free card because apparently you think you're behind and need to improve to see a showdown.
2- you raise and he 3bets and now you know you need to improve to see a showdown.

so what are we learning exactly?

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Well I think you said it yourself... If SB or BB 3-bets I know I have to improve to see a showdown. But if SB folds and BB calls and check the turn, I could either check behind or bet depending on what card falls on the turn.

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why do you want it headsup? you're drawing - the more the merrier. you might clean up your T outs by getting another Q to fold but that's the least of your concerns

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I agree that getting SB to fold isn't that a big issue but with a raise I have a better idea where he's at in the hand. With a call on the flop it's likely that SB would at least call on this board (even if he in fact folded), and you have no idea of his hand. With a raise you know that he must have a good made hand or a strong draw to stay in the hand. This adds to the information I think a raise produces...

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because this board SMASHES the big blind with two pair hands, pair+straight draw hands, pair+flush draw hands, and straight+flush draw hands. he bet into the PFR. his stats indicate he is not the bet/call sort of guy.

[/ QUOTE ] Why didn't he go for a checkraise? If he wants to get as much money in the pot as possible, wouldn't he try a checkraise since the PFR almost always bets on a flop like this and he would have the possibility to sandbag the flop? And he would have to have both a straight and flushdraw to have potequity to do this so i think its more likely he has a made hand and by raising I get a picture of how strong it is.

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your hand is plenty strong enough to continue even if you know 100% he has a hand that wants to 3bet.

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You're absolutely right. My bad.

I often seem to be proposing a more aggresive style of play on the flop than most of you guys here. I give you a lot of respect since I know you mostly play on 5/10 tables when i play 1/2. My aggressive flop play works fine on 1/2 but maybe it wouldn't work on higher tables? My flop AF is 2.16 and my total AF is 1.49.