calling down agaisnt l-p's

[martybonus]

I'm starting to wonder at the line that says we ought to call down when we have things like KK or even AA when we're faced with quite a bit of resistance. The post I just made about KK is a good example.

Here's what I mean.

Hero has a monster PF, like KK or AA. obviously a huge favourite PF.

Villains are known loose-passives.

flop comes down like 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

so we bet out and push hard figuring our KK or AA or whatever is STILL a huge favourite. We're in a 2-3 way pot and villains push back pretty hard. those that aren't betting hard and are totaly un-bothered when we cap or 3bet.

I'm starting to wonder if against passive players whether a c/f on the turn UI is a better line than a call down.

Maybe it's just cos I'm a bit cold just now that I'm feeling this way. But i'm starting to wonder if the call-down is spew.

If we have 2-3 loose-passive villains, all of whom are either betting hard or un-bothered by hard betting, are we ever good here?


I guess I'm saying: We know full well that when passive villains come alive, ESPECIALLY if they 3bang, we're in trouble.

So are we sure that it's +EV to call down even though the magic eight ball says 'all signs say no.'?

Thanks in advance.

[tyler_cracker]

how big is the pot when you go a lot of bets multiway preflop and on the flop? how often does your overpair have to win for you to show a profit by calling down in these situations?

[nichtsnutz]

It's obviously not a good play to always call down with KK/AA. If 3 opponents cap the flop and the top card pairs on the turn you're probably good like never.

You always have to balance. The problem is that often after it got capped PF and on the flop the pot is so big that you have to call down when it is HU. Sometimes they're just sick of your TAG [censored] and push their TP.

[Buzz-cp]

I echo tyler's comments that pot size is crucial. Also the number of opponents, the board texture and how much SD will cost. The key thing is we want to avoid getting trapped. In your hand, suppose we are last to act. It goes bet, raise before us. We are looking at calling 2 bets, and the possibility that it gets 3-bet and/or capped before the river. In a smaller pot (say, one that went raised 3 ways pf, and 1 bet on the flop), this could be pretty expensive.

But, there are lots of variations, and we'd need a specific hand to see what is going on with your play.

[Todd]

I think you lose a lot less calling down 2 big bets with AA or KK when you meet a crap load of resistance, than you do by limping UTG with ATo in a full ring game.

What ever mistake you make in this situation will be a max 2 BB if you are playing wisely, and truly are in call down mode. As mentioned above, if you are calling 4-bets with an overpair on the turn, then that is not exactly call down mode.

[martybonus]

good point about the pot size. i was glossing over that. we call down cos we only have to be correct now and then to win ALL our money back.

but my question is more basic. in some ways, pot size is totally irrelevant because when l-p's 3bet or whatever, it's starting to seem to me like we're making a fundamental theory error. Our AA has two outs, plus a few more outs that beat 2p as well, etc, but for the most part, when an l-p 3bangs us, it is a big, fat, banner that says 'calling this bet is a mistake!'.

Also, the pot size v equity uncertainty issue that tyler raises obscures something. Simply put, we have to pay WAY more than 1BB to find out if l-p villain is in fact holding the hand he's advertising with his 'i have you beat, calling is a mistake' banner.

so we cap the flop or whatever, villain raises our follow-up turn bet, we now have put in 2 more BB on the turn, plus moer on the river.

If we're going to pay on the river AND the turn, we have to be ALOT more confident that l-p's hand is weaker than he's saying.

yes, i know, we're not supposed to think about how much we've put in the pot. but we SHOULD be concerned about making fundamental errors which pad the pot with OUR money.

I guess I'm starting to think that a) l-p's are rarely if ever lying or wrong about their hand strength b) that I'm making constant mistakes by calling down in SPITE of the fact that l-p's are screaming 'you'd be wrong to call this bet'.

I'm almost wondering if a better line against l-p's is to be TAG on the flop but release readily if 3banged on the flop and raised on the turn.

these fart-pants poopy faces are stealing my bucket and I'm too stupid to start folding when they try it.

[Absolution]

I use board texture, number of players in the pot, reads, position and pot size, just like in any analysis. If you have a guy that obviously only plays his own cards (i.e. lots of donk betting with top pair), I think you can make these folds when he goes nuts. If you get trapped between two loose passives going to war on a 3-flush or paired board, you're top pair or overpair isn't good often enough to call down.

[martybonus]

thanks abs.

i'm trying to look for 'general' solutions to things that don't have them.

hallmark of a good player = ability to take numerous things into account simultaneously.

i gotta take the training wheels off.

that said, I've *yet* to be surprised by a l-p's holding at SD. I've yet to call down in a big pot and win that miracle 5%-chance-which-is-worth-more-than-1BB-in-equity pot.

yeah, i'm not very experienced, but what I do have seems to suggest that raise on later street + l-p villain = fold those bullets.

[BionicComma]

Its interesting. I often wonder how players balance intuition with mathematics.

Sometimes I know what the other guy has, and I convince myself to call because its "+EV"

[martybonus]

[ QUOTE ]
.

Sometimes I know what the other guy has, and I convince myself to call because its "+EV"

[/ QUOTE ]

BLOODY EXACTLY what I'm trying to say.

I'm not trying to say I'm a good hand reader. I'm not.

But it goes like this, 'wow, he's sure betting hard. Does he have the straight? No way he flopped a straight, why would he cold-call with 68o? I've got to push this flop in case he's drawing. Holy crap, he 3banged me, he's got to have at least 2p. But no way he flopped a straight, that never happens. I'll call down just to be sure cos most of the time he isn't on the straight.

2-3 BB later, villain shows the straight.

And I think 'marty, you unmitigated [censored], you KNEW this was going to happen. It's in your player notes: his raises mean big hands. WTF are you calling for when he know he's only 3banging with hands that beat you.

HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME [/tall guy from that bit on the simpsons with nelson]