question regarding shortstack push...please read

[clownslayer2]

My roommate and I discuss poker strategy a lot, he plays in a way that I do not agree with too much, based on all the books he has read and stuff like that. I do not like reading the books, I play based on experience and 2+2 research, for I feel the books are more for beginners. Well he has been talking about this thing called "M" or somethin for a while, which I really do not understand, nor care to. Last night in the 5K gtd on Bodog, I had an interesting hand that he thinks is a completely right play. I will explain it here, because Bodog does not have a hand history converter.

The blinds had just reached 800/1600 and i had a stack of around 23,500. Avg stack was just over 28K, and there were 26 or 27 people left. I am in the small blind and got dealt K J suited. This was the best hand I had seen in a while and really needed to start accumulating some chips. I had two huge stacks at my table (both over 70K). One was pretty loose, the other was a tight aggressive player, who had his chips handed to him. The TAG was UTG and raised to 3200, and the other big stack just called. When it came to me (in the small blind with K J suited) I thought about what to do. He told me to push, and I agreed thinking it was a decent hand to do it with.

I really do not respect K J, even suited, and I think it was a really bad play. The raiser UTG could easily have A J, K Q, AK, A Q, and I am just dominated. I know that I could not just call but is this the hand I really want to push with? If I do push, do I want callers on this push or is this more of a play? He keeps telling me it was a perfect squeeze play and my M was around 5 or 6 and that I needed to do this, but I do not think I should have. I had a lot of time to wait for a better hand, better positions, etc.

Sorry its so long.

[Sherman]

Yes, this is a spot for a squeeze play and it appears that stack sizes are correct for it.

However, given your read on UTG as Tag and min-raising from UTG, I don't think I like the squeeze play here. If he raised from say the HJ or CO and the big stack called on the button, then I would say a squeeze play is better.

[clownslayer2]

ya, that is the only reason I really do not like it, because UTG was a pretty tight player.

[kniper]

M lets you know how desperate you are for chips. I think a squeeze is reasonable, but I prob wouldn't do it here given your read.

[BigAlK]

I think your reluctance to call was correct for all the reasons you've given. Your friend is right that you're short stacked and need to get some chips, but calling a tight utg raiser with an easily dominated hand isn't the way to do it. He forgot to factor in a few other things he should have learned from those same books. One is that your range to open from early position needs to be tighter (making it that much more likely that a tight utg raiser has you dominated if not crushed). The other is that it takes a better hand to call (or in this case re-raise) against a raise than to make a raise.

You on the other hand could possibly benefit from reading those books. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I realize that different people learn better in different ways so if that doesn't work for you that's cool. But how have you learned from 2+2 and never learned about M (unless you don't normally visit the MTT forum).

[clownslayer2]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your reluctance to call was correct for all the reasons you've given. Your friend is right that you're short stacked and need to get some chips, but calling a tight utg raiser with an easily dominated hand isn't the way to do it. He forgot to factor in a few other things he should have learned from those same books. One is that your range to open from early position needs to be tighter (making it that much more likely that a tight utg raiser has you dominated if not crushed). The other is that it takes a better hand to call (or in this case re-raise) against a raise than to make a raise.

You on the other hand could possibly benefit from reading those books. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I realize that different people learn better in different ways so if that doesn't work for you that's cool. But how have you learned from 2+2 and never learned about M (unless you don't normally visit the MTT forum).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this because I really like the idea of it putting UTG on a better hand because he is raising UTG

[tthhbb]

I don't think anyone would advocate a call here ... His friend suggested a squeeze play, which would have been perfect with the LAG opening and the TAG calling with position on a known loose player. The way it is though its not a good move.

p.s. cards don't really matter for squeeze play

[PantsOnFire]

I don't like this play for a whole bunch of reasons.

1. Looking at the blinds, it doesn't look like your M is around 5 or 6, unless the ante is something like 300.

2. "this is the best hand I've seen in awhile". This doesn't make your hand any stronger. It's KJs and that's it. The only thing about not having a hand in awhile is that your table image might be perceived as tight so you may be able to steal, but really that would mean a blind steal with trash from late position with an open raise.

3. For a squeezeplay to be successful, the original raiser should be seen as loose and likely out of line. The caller of that raise should also realize that and that is the reason for his call. If you pushed in here, I'm betting both those big stacks called. You want a high percentage chance that both opponents will fold and I highly doubt this is the situation here. This is far from a perfect squeezeplay and IMHO, it is not even close for meeting the criteria of a squeezeplay. Further to that, a good squeezeplay is when you can make a large raise and still have some chips left if the play doesn't work. And again further to that, you make squeezeplays with trash hands not hands that have some value.

4. When you do get to an M of 5, you are looking to push all-in, that is true. However, one of the key factors is to be the open raiser. When your M is 5, winning the blinds and antes is a good victory. You should only push all-in over top of a raiser if you feel you have the best hand (or perhaps a coinflip situation) and don't mind a call.

5. You are in the SB and about to have good position the next few hands. Let this one go.

I doubt your friend is a winning tourney player if he thinks pushing KJs in this spot is the right play.

[betgo]

Given the two big stacks are involved, I like the push and KJs is an excellent restealing hand. You have to be a little concerned that the UTG miniraise might be a big pair.

I don't know why everyone is saying a flat call is bad. You are a getting 4-1 pot odds with the miniraise in the SB and you have the kind of hand you would like to see a flop with. I think calling is better than folding.

Pushing = calling > folding IMO.

[RoccoTerrier]

Tough spot, but I think I would call. odds are good and, if you have to walk away from the flop, you still have enough chips to inflict pain with all-in moves.