Are these spew??

sauce123 · #1 03-14-2007, 08:35 PM

Hand 1: Villain has taggish stats so far, a little on the weak side like 13/25, but is basically unknown.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($914.50)
CO ($597)
Button ($639)
SB ($1164.15)
Hero ($564)
UTG ($700.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $6, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($18) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $54, SB folds, Hero calls $42.

Turn: ($126) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $102, Hero calls $102.

River: ($330) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $402

Hand 2: Villain is some reg tag I havent been too impressed with.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($358.65)
SB ($154)
BB ($723.60)
UTG ($1600.10)
MP ($743.15)
Hero ($1030.55)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $24, 1 fold, Hero calls $24, Button calls $24, 1 fold, BB calls $18.

Flop: ($99) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $84, Hero calls $84, Button folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($267) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $210, Hero raises to $922.55,

Note: Normally I raise flop here, but with the 2 other villains in hand/ with a hand which benefits from multiway action I chose to call. I also will play a set like this occasionally.

jfish · #2 03-14-2007, 08:43 PM

1.) sick, nice. this should be the only hand youre bluffing with in this spot so any thinking player will realize you have a flush the vast majority of the time here.

2.) sooooo close.

your range here is like maybe TT hoping for overcalls or bluff c/rs on flop. aside from that i think it has to be obvious that you are semibluffing a ton here. i dont think overpairs fold honestly despite you being 160+bb deep.

but the fact that you act right after utg on flop does make it closer i think.

i think i dont like it, but im not sure.

TheWorstPlayer · #3 03-14-2007, 08:47 PM

for this exact reasoning, it is so important to raise the flop here. he will think "Why would he raise the flop with a draw? That will just shot people out." and if you flat call he thinks "Why would he flat call a set? That just lets people in." And if you get action behind you after raising, you have an easy fold anyways since your pair is worthless and your draw might not be good either. If you had the nut draw, then I think the call would be a lot better to reduce the chances of your getting blown off it.

sauce123 · #4 03-14-2007, 08:59 PM

good point TWP. IMO thats a very good argument for flat calling a set in this spot as

a) draws may semibluff shove and we have great equity
b) UTG may call a shove with AA KK QQ and we will have INCREDIBLE equity
c) UTG may infer that we HAVE to be on a FD and our "flush" is a 4.5 to one dog to hit on turn putting us in a great spot to crush an overpair in a 160 BB pot.

That being said it seems like an iffy call with an overpair and idk if i would make it.

TheWorstPlayer · #5 03-14-2007, 09:10 PM

yes. i would often raise a draw and flat call a set in this spot for precisely that reason. but you need the right set of opponents for that to work. against most, just raise the set and fold the draw, which should be standard, obviously.

sauce123 · #6 03-14-2007, 09:14 PM

Yea true. I think you were at the table actually. It was UTG, Kanoa and suckoutqueen who is veeerrry capable of making a play here with a gutshot+pair or worse imo.

interesting hand.

Chaostracize · #7 03-14-2007, 09:19 PM

Hand 1: Flop call is fine, if he's not the type to raise draws. Turn call is horrific, haven't read other responses, but I'm guessing others agree. River is abysmal, you think a weak tag is raising a flop and double barreling a turn with a weak hand? You're getting called on the river here and often, a strong hand here is just so unbelievable.

Hand 2: Why are you calling this flop? You have top pair with a flush draw. You should be raising here. On this turn he's got 400 behind, so he's getting 2-1 on the call. You just don't have near enough fold equity to make your push profitable. Call, and if you hit you T/9/flush then get it in, if not, hope to god he checks to you so you can check behind.

In response to your note, sure, if you had just a flush draw and nothing else, but if you let others come in then your top pair becomes much less strong. This is a hand you want to get to money in with as soon as possible, not let others in on the ride.

sauce123 · #8 03-14-2007, 09:31 PM

In hand 1: On express odds alone I realize Im dead and my call is -ev.

At the same time I think my turn call is good as he almost never has a FD here and thats exactly what I am representing. Literally the only 2 hands I can have here are 87 or a flush.

I also believe my shove gets paid every time when i hit my straight.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 03-14-2007, 09:32 PM

utg is kanoa in 2? then just fold the turn. he has overpair every time and highly doubt he ever folds it. suckoutqueen is insane, though. def try to get her to make a play on the pot. she'll rarely disappoint you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Chaostracize · #10 03-14-2007, 09:34 PM

Calling with a flush draw on the turn is not standard or good and to say that you are representing a flush draw is absolutely false. You are representing a hand that wants to get to the river cheaply... calling with draws oop for full pot bet getting JUST about even odds...implied odds included, is a very poor play since how often do you think you are getting paid off.

And let me ask you this. If you say you are playing it like a flush draw and you are playing this way because you are expecting to get paid off, and this is how you'd play it... then why would you push this river as a bluff?